Mac OS 64 bit | Request | Beg | Plea

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giancarlo
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Re: Mac OS 64 bit | Request | Beg | Plea

Post by giancarlo » Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:22 am

we cant adopt juce unless we rewrite completely the skinnng engine both for nebula and acqua products and believe me, its an huge work.If you want to wait other 4 years... ;)
nebula needs a lot of things, ie loading png from memory and other nasty things

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Re: Mac OS 64 bit | Request | Beg | Plea

Post by brp » Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:21 am

i know that these things are nasty as hell. and that's my point, with juce you'll get some awsom classes which allready suport skinning and loading png's from memory!! you'll kind of just put some of these classes together and define them if they should compile with a png integrated with them or with a specified path where the png lies. it even offers you a program called the jucer where you can define youre gui classes through graphical interface!!

farther you could offer a juce class instead or additional to aqua. devs then were able to develop bether guis, customised meters or even a plugin which is able to load more than just one nebula program. that really could bring some awsome eq plugins to us!! or in therms of compressors devs also could make plugins which loads two instances of nebula, a fast one with 1.kernel and another slow one with the harmonics ;-) possibilities are endless as you see. so please thake yourself half a day to install juce and make some beginners tutorial. you'll get the idea very soon how to build up a gui with juce, so that you'll see after a few hours allready if it would be a good idea to go with juce or not.. and btw jules (the guy who makes juce) is kind of an inspiring genius like you are. so even in that sense of sprit juce would fit acustica-audio very well :D

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Re: Mac OS 64 bit | Request | Beg | Plea

Post by giancarlo » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:16 am

changing the gui engine requires the rewriting of a lot of code, which is not strategic at all for us.
Better if we spend our time on something else, like the engine, supporting 3rd party developers, creting new technologies.
Acqua is a skinning language based on xml parsing, so a lot easier than juce for our developers (c++ skills are an high requirement for a library developer, who should be focused on music production, hardware tuning, sampling). Moving the engine to a different library takes a lot of time, so we'll not move to juce. I guess never (unless we hire someone who could spend his time on that, at the moment we can't afford it)

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Re: Mac OS 64 bit | Request | Beg | Plea

Post by brp » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:08 am

ok i see, we totally agree that you want spend as less time as possible on everything but the engine.

but there is my point, with juce you would save time, especially in the long therm. you'd allways have to just write one code for vst, au, tdm, x86, x64 for both mac and win. i don't know how it stands with aax, but if it's there, you'd get it with no extra work!! and believe me, if nebula had a more streamlined gui and worked with protools, you'd sell so much licenses that you'd become a rich man over night ;-)
imageing nebula would be presented at pensado's place, the whole pro marked would buy nebula on the next day!! but therefor it must be aax or at least tdm.
all these advantages makes juce the first choice framework for a lot of plugin manufacturers.

juce also has a lot of xml stuff, so there's maybe a elegant way to integrate your acqua skinning language...

but i stop now with my marketing show. if you tryed allready juce and came to the conclusion that it's not worth, then fine, you're probably right.

i just have serious problems with believing that you allready gave juce a real chance when i read your counter arguments. so did you? and the jucer? dont you find it easy to create gui's with it?

btw. nat can also be written with juce and compiled for win, mac, x86, x64 and iphone/ipad. so you could run it on your ipad while you're at a rented studio ;-)

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Re: Mac OS 64 bit | Request | Beg | Plea

Post by giancarlo » Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:20 pm

I'll go straight. Juce would delay us till next century, too much code was written, and adapting things to a new framework changing mutex, queues, methods and network code would be an incredible waste of time. Is it ok now? we could adopt juce only if someone else would do it for us... maybe someone paid... I think juce is a good framework but it was delivered too late for us.... we are able to pay someone, but he should be good and fast, because we have around 80000 lines of souce code without comments and spaces, something in the 200000 ball park of human spaced code. Nebula is an huge project


Btw I know juce. I analyzed the source code for sidechain, au and tdm...

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Re: Mac OS 64 bit | Request | Beg | Plea

Post by dpclarkson » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:09 pm

Giancarlo, please ignore the programming 'advice' from
anyone here. You're doing a splendid job, brought a truly
groundbreaking product to the market in terms of sonics.
People should actually be thankfull that we get to work
with these awesome tools for so little money.
In the meantime we all can get our work done.
Not being able to work in 64 bit isn't really going
to kill you. I've finished so many mixes already, some of them
which are going to be mastered at Bernie Grundman's.
My work is not rejected at mastering facilities, not because
they're not mixed in 64 bit, but because they are finished.

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Re: Mac OS 64 bit | Request | Beg | Plea

Post by cpwade » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:57 am

dpclarkson wrote:Giancarlo, please ignore the programming 'advice' from
anyone here. You're doing a splendid job, brought a truly
groundbreaking product to the market in terms of sonics.
People should actually be thankfull that we get to work
with these awesome tools for so little money.
In the meantime we all can get our work done.
Not being able to work in 64 bit isn't really going
to kill you. I've finished so many mixes already, some of them
which are going to be mastered at Bernie Grundman's.
My work is not rejected at mastering facilities, not because
they're not mixed in 64 bit, but because they are finished.
Phuck yeah. +1

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Re: Mac OS 64 bit | Request | Beg | Plea

Post by swartzfeger » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:00 am

dpclarkson wrote:Giancarlo, please ignore the programming 'advice' from anyone here. You're doing a splendid job, brought a truly
groundbreaking product to the market in terms of sonics.
Agreed. As a Mac user, I avoided Nebula for a long time because the OS X support seemed very far behind Windows. Now, it seems we are almost there... 64-bit is already testing, Core 4 is almost here, and jBridge currently works for Logic X users like myself.

So, I'm purchasing Pro this week. You and your team are doing a great job, Giancarlo... this is a very exciting time!

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Re: Mac OS 64 bit | Request | Beg | Plea

Post by brp » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:46 pm

ah ok. thanks for this statement. i just wanted to make sure that you know juce and its possibilities and are not ignoring it. but if you know it, then i'm sure you judge things right. i could not imagin that changeing gui would mean so much work!

it's a huge pitty that juce came too late for you!

i personally think it would make sens to go with juce from a strategic point of view. it just opens up a lot of ways and possibilities for your company. i even think of licensing the engine code to other developpers which want to make some hybrid plugins.

but its surely a difficult desicion if you had to hire someone for that. maybe you'll find some nerds in the juce forum (if i remember right, there is kind of a job board). and maybe its just more clever to not start it at all! for such desicions swot-analyses usually can help. learn about this if you havent allready.

anyway, i wish you the very best luck for the future of your company and nebula of course!

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Re: Mac OS 64 bit | Request | Beg | Plea

Post by SWAN » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:02 pm

I think its just a freindly suggestion but no one really knows the full complexities of another company/product and as Giancarlo is a genius Im sure he is very likely correct :D

However its always good to think about these things just in case because even a genius sometimes needs ideas 8-) I have to admit Juce sounds like it has a lot of advantages but there is probably a huge amount of work to get it there...
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Re: Mac OS 64 bit | Request | Beg | Plea

Post by giancarlo » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:35 pm

brp wrote:ah ok. thanks for this statement. i just wanted to make sure that you know juce and its possibilities and are not ignoring it. but if you know it, then i'm sure you judge things right. i could not imagin that changeing gui would mean so much work!

it's a huge pitty that juce came too late for you!

i personally think it would make sens to go with juce from a strategic point of view. it just opens up a lot of ways and possibilities for your company. i even think of licensing the engine code to other developpers which want to make some hybrid plugins.

but its surely a difficult desicion if you had to hire someone for that. maybe you'll find some nerds in the juce forum (if i remember right, there is kind of a job board). and maybe its just more clever to not start it at all! for such desicions swot-analyses usually can help. learn about this if you havent allready.

anyway, i wish you the very best luck for the future of your company and nebula of course!
yes, I think jules writes better code than me, more objective oriented, modular, clear and logic. Nebula code is a lot worse. Orion code is a lot better than nebula code, you need to start from the scratch a lot of projects in order to reach the beauty of carmack or jule code. I'm good with complex projects like orion, where you need to go fast through a lot of complexities, but at the end my code is not as much elegant. Orion was my second c++ project and is close to 500.000 code lines, summarized in about 80.000 without spaces, comments and featuring member names of only 5 characters. It will be a pain if we'll decide to go open source :))))

good news for mac osx, new version is really faster. It features intel ipp 8 and a lot of code coming from orion

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Re: Mac OS 64 bit | Request | Beg | Plea

Post by giancarlo » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:43 pm

SWAN wrote:I think its just a freindly suggestion but no one really knows the full complexities of another company/product and as Giancarlo is a genius Im sure he is very likely correct :D

However its always good to think about these things just in case because even a genius sometimes needs ideas 8-) I have to admit Juce sounds like it has a lot of advantages but there is probably a huge amount of work to get it there...
yes, exactly... We dont exclude it but we need to hire if we decide to follow this direction...

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Re: Mac OS 64 bit | Request | Beg | Plea

Post by jeffbdavis » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:17 pm

giancarlo wrote:good news for mac osx, new version is really faster. It features intel ipp 8 and a lot of code coming from orion
I can't wait! :D

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Re: Mac OS 64 bit | Request | Beg | Plea

Post by brp » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:09 am

giancarlo wrote: yes, I think jules writes better code than me, more objective oriented, modular, clear and logic. Nebula code is a lot worse. Orion code is a lot better than nebula code, you need to start from the scratch a lot of projects in order to reach the beauty of carmack or jule code. I'm good with complex projects like orion, where you need to go fast through a lot of complexities, but at the end my code is not as much elegant. Orion was my second c++ project and is close to 500.000 code lines, summarized in about 80.000 without spaces, comments and featuring member names of only 5 characters. It will be a pain if we'll decide to go open source :))))

good news for mac osx, new version is really faster. It features intel ipp 8 and a lot of code coming from orion
Ah, you're thinking of going the radical way! my idea would have been a lot more pragmatic and straight forward: i thought to just get rid of the gui code and replaceing it by kind of an interface class. now you make a new gui with juce which just communicate to the engine through this interface class. i never had in my mind to opensource the engine code. of cours this would mean light years of hard work and could even mean some amount of harming to your helth!!

i worked once in a company where a developper should have done a mayor rewrite of his own code which was a mess without any documentation. after a while he got a really serious burnout and were nomore allowed by the doctor to ever work on this code again!!

i really do not want something similar happen to you!! this seams to be a typical coder desease. starting a project with very lazy names to get just a scetch of what you wanna do and afterwards you think oh it works, never touch it again... here jules is really a genious just for realizing that more is less :P just a bit extra effort while writing and you are able afterwards to read through your code like it was a book! i myself would have been exactly the same :roll: short names for variables or even single letters i would have thought of being very practical while coding, why ever writing long names, this just looked like a silly, neardy idea. but as soon as i got the idea and sense of juce, suddenly everything made sense and i got one of these very intense ahaa moments :idea: from now on only code in the juce style seamed correct to me and everything else would have been kind of wrong! you get the picture if you think of typing a password where you see just the dots instead of the letters. how long could you remember a text written in such encrypted dots?? it just never would make sense to write a text like this at all!! you could say, yeah, its just easier to me to only paint some dots to the paper instead of making the effort to use letters... but even if the biggest dot fan finds a year old letter with just dots, he doesn't really have a chance to read it, the letter is just good to throwing it into the garbidge!! you get the point :)

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Re: Mac OS 64 bit | Request | Beg | Plea

Post by giancarlo » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:36 am

the fact, in c++ I ll never stop coding in that way, it prevents errors. In java I use a different convention, the common sense one

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