Sample Rate Discussion (off of AITB Germanos EQ Thread)

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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Post by surbitone » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:33 pm

96k or 44.1? :ugeek:

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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Post by rrrobo » Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:11 am

fuseburn wrote:Anyone compared the W295b to the one by CDSoundmaster ?
To be honest its probably not worth it when Michael's is already available.

Sorry to be negative but using Prism conversion and Vovox cables and then setting everything to 44.1khz is a bit silly (as if there is nothing going through these electronics above 22.05Khz..).

Michael (CDSoundMaster) uses Mytek converters which are in the same league or higher than the Prism but he fully understands the benefit of capturing audio through these vintage units at 96khz which analoginthebox don't seem to. That's one reason I would take the CDSoundMaster W295b over the analoginthebox one even though I've not heard the AITB. Michael's is incredible and a bit underrated in my opinion - I think it has better deep bass and impossibly smooth highs (you don't notice what it's doing until you bypass kind of thing) than any other EQs I've tried and I have tried a lot. (All the best Neb EQs etc). I don't know, maybe it just fits my preference for high end EQ but I rate it very highly (read: at the top) for a sweetening/mastering EQ and also for adding thump to the low end along with the GML.

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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Post by tumburu » Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:46 am

That GML is doing nothing if boosting less than 2dbs (or cutting for that matter), if you want to talk about proper sampling :roll:

Sometimes it does at 1.5, sometimes it does not, there's no rule and you don't know what it will do.

My Lavry converter sounds gorgeous at 44. I suppose you didn't listen to the Mammoth library before posting such statements. Anyway, the Siemens is probably the best eq from CDSM. Others behave inconsistent.

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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Post by TranscendingMusic » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:15 am

rrrobo wrote:
fuseburn wrote:Anyone compared the W295b to the one by CDSoundmaster ?
To be honest its probably not worth it when Michael's is already available.

Sorry to be negative but using Prism conversion and Vovox cables and then setting everything to 44.1khz is a bit silly (as if there is nothing going through these electronics above 22.05Khz..).

Michael (CDSoundMaster) uses Mytek converters which are in the same league or higher than the Prism but he fully understands the benefit of capturing audio through these vintage units at 96khz which analoginthebox don't seem to. That's one reason I would take the CDSoundMaster W295b over the analoginthebox one even though I've not heard the AITB. Michael's is incredible and a bit underrated in my opinion - I think it has better deep bass and impossibly smooth highs (you don't notice what it's doing until you bypass kind of thing) than any other EQs I've tried and I have tried a lot. (All the best Neb EQs etc). I don't know, maybe it just fits my preference for high end EQ but I rate it very highly (read: at the top) for a sweetening/mastering EQ and also for adding thump to the low end along with the GML.
This is very misinformative. As any user and collector of analog gear, when budget permits, one could collect two pieces of the same gear, especially vintage or boutique gear where every single instance will be somewhat different to yield unique character. Both AITB and CDSM's will be invaluable. As far as the converters go and sample rate: a set of high quality converters such as Mytek or Prisms will work just fine between 44.1 to 96 Khz. Quality made converters in fact work their best in this range. Anything higher than that would induce converter artifacts employing them even harder then they should be working. There is a point of diminishing returns. The filter is steep yet gentle enough within this range and some experts would even argue you could can very well work at 44.1 with no issues contingent on good DSP and good sense of engineering. There is nothing to be lost or gained sampling properly at 44.1 or 96, only different results. Different is different, neither good or bad.
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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Post by rrrobo » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:04 am

tumburu wrote:I suppose you didn't listen to the Mammoth library before posting such statements.
Yes I did. 'All the best Neb EQs' obviously includes Mammoth.

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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Post by kungfujeezus » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:47 am

rrrobo wrote:
fuseburn wrote:Anyone compared the W295b to the one by CDSoundmaster ?
To be honest its probably not worth it when Michael's is already available.

Sorry to be negative but using Prism conversion and Vovox cables and then setting everything to 44.1khz is a bit silly (as if there is nothing going through these electronics above 22.05Khz..).

Michael (CDSoundMaster) uses Mytek converters which are in the same league or higher than the Prism but he fully understands the benefit of capturing audio through these vintage units at 96khz which analoginthebox don't seem to. That's one reason I would take the CDSoundMaster W295b over the analoginthebox one even though I've not heard the AITB. Michael's is incredible and a bit underrated in my opinion - I think it has better deep bass and impossibly smooth highs (you don't notice what it's doing until you bypass kind of thing) than any other EQs I've tried and I have tried a lot. (All the best Neb EQs etc). I don't know, maybe it just fits my preference for high end EQ but I rate it very highly (read: at the top) for a sweetening/mastering EQ and also for adding thump to the low end along with the GML.
Well, that's a pretty ignorant thing to say in total. I only mix in 44.1 as do many of my peers, and I'd be interested to hear the differences in both libraries/units.

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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Post by rrrobo » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:41 am

kungfujeezus wrote: Well, that's a pretty ignorant thing to say in total. I only mix in 44.1 as do many of my peers, and I'd be interested to hear the differences in both libraries/units.

Well you work at 44.1khz but not everyone does and because people do something doesn't make it what people should do.

Of course I understand the benefit of having two programs captured from different individual devices for the benefit of realism, in fact I was the one who brought this up recently on this forum, but it's not a good idea to have both programs if one is at 44.1khz and one is at 96khz as you will then be introducing SRC somewhere.

Obviously if you work at 44 you will probably get the AITB, and if you work at 96 you will get Michael's. But if you have a choice or are flexible about what rate you want to work at, then clearly the 96khz version is going to be the better option in terms of fidelity.

There's nothing strange about what I'm saying really, just that I don't see the point of chopping everything off at 22khz when we're ultimately trying to capture these devices as realistically as we can, and that in my opinion (not just mine) it's best to go for the highest fidelity libraries available.

This is not ignorant or misinformative, thanks.

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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Post by tumburu » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:52 am

Now you have a different tone. Writing cr*p about somebody's work without owning the product is not good in the first place.

Anybody is free to sample at whatever rate they want. You, as a customer are entitled to give suggestions if you consider that it's necessary. You can complain only if there are real problems.

So, this is a thread about the Germanos collection, if you please.

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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Post by rrrobo » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:55 am

Hey why are you getting so defensive? I didn't write crap about any developer, I pointed out the anomaly that they use the best audio capture hardware available and set it to less than best settings - which is disappointing for me too! (I would love to get my hands on the AITB N*****n W492 etc) They did release the Mammoth at 96khz by request but now seem to have gone back to 44.1khz.

Anyone is of course free to compare the two regardless of mine or anyone else's opinion, so I don't really know why people are so hurt by this (apart from that they are being defensive of still working at 44.1khz, or that my words could put some people off this release, although this release could put some people off CDSoundMaster's release so I think that's fair).

I'm not talking from a point of ignorance by the way, I have used many of AITBs programs and don't find them to be as good as the equivalents from CDSoundMaster or AlexB and I think one reason is the choice of sample rate.

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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Post by AlexB » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:14 pm

Theoretically is clear and after a tons of blind test, to my ears (as a lot of TOP engineer - Toni Maserati, Bob Katz, Bob Ohlsson and many others - search the interviews) 96kHz sounds better than 44.1kHz always. More air, separation, details. Period.

- If you work at 44.1kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 44.1kHz it's OK.
- If you work at 44.1kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 96kHz it sounds a little better.
- If you work at 96kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 96kHz it's perfect.
- If you work at 96kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 44.1kHz you lose the quality with downsampling and cutting your sound by steep filter.

They are the facts and for sure everyone is free to think and work with personal preferences.

About converters: Top notch converters like Mytek, UA2192, Prism (ADA series, not Prism Orpheus which is not so clean) and Weiss work perfectly if better even at 192kHz without artifacts.

At the final it's not a matter of what is the best, but what "you" like... And what you can hear :mrgreen:
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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Post by Goldfish » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:08 pm

AlexB wrote:Theoretically is clear and after a tons of blind test, to my ears (as a lot of TOP engineer - Toni Maserati, Bob Katz, Bob Ohlsson and many others - search the interviews) 96kHz sounds better than 44.1kHz always. More air, separation, details. Period.

- If you work at 44.1kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 44.1kHz it's OK.
- If you work at 44.1kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 96kHz it sounds a little better.
- If you work at 96kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 96kHz it's perfect.
- If you work at 96kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 44.1kHz you lose the quality with downsampling and cutting your sound by steep filter.

They are the facts and for sure everyone is free to think and work with personal preferences.

About converters: Top notch converters like Mytek, UA2192, Prism (ADA series, not Prism Orpheus which is not so clean) and Weiss work perfectly if better even at 192kHz without artifacts.

At the final it's not a matter of what is the best, but what "you" like... And what you can hear :mrgreen:
I concur. I have done a lot of testing on my UA2192 and to me there is an obvious sonic improvement in 96k. If I had enough processing power to run all my mixes at 96 I would.

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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Post by tumburu » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:31 pm

AlexB wrote:Theoretically is clear and after a tons of blind test, to my ears (as a lot of TOP engineer - Toni Maserati, Bob Katz, Bob Ohlsson and many others - search the interviews) 96kHz sounds better than 44.1kHz always. More air, separation, details. Period.

- If you work at 44.1kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 44.1kHz it's OK.
- If you work at 44.1kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 96kHz it sounds a little better.
- If you work at 96kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 96kHz it's perfect.
- If you work at 96kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 44.1kHz you lose the quality with downsampling and cutting your sound by steep filter.

They are the facts and for sure everyone is free to think and work with personal preferences.

About converters: Top notch converters like Mytek, UA2192, Prism (ADA series, not Prism Orpheus which is not so clean) and Weiss work perfectly if better even at 192kHz without artifacts.

At the final it's not a matter of what is the best, but what "you" like... And what you can hear :mrgreen:
Well, I believe Bob Katz is more an editor and book writer, Bob Ohlsson is indeed a great name in the industry, but there is a general consensus over at PSW, Brad Blackwood's board, that in blind tests the chances to hear the differences are 50/50 (Brad and many others work at 44.1), the obvious difference being not in the sample rate used but in the bit depth used (almost everybody spots the 24 over 16).

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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Post by mertayy » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:37 pm

tumburu wrote:
AlexB wrote:Theoretically is clear and after a tons of blind test, to my ears (as a lot of TOP engineer - Toni Maserati, Bob Katz, Bob Ohlsson and many others - search the interviews) 96kHz sounds better than 44.1kHz always. More air, separation, details. Period.

- If you work at 44.1kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 44.1kHz it's OK.
- If you work at 44.1kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 96kHz it sounds a little better.
- If you work at 96kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 96kHz it's perfect.
- If you work at 96kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 44.1kHz you lose the quality with downsampling and cutting your sound by steep filter.

They are the facts and for sure everyone is free to think and work with personal preferences.

About converters: Top notch converters like Mytek, UA2192, Prism (ADA series, not Prism Orpheus which is not so clean) and Weiss work perfectly if better even at 192kHz without artifacts.

At the final it's not a matter of what is the best, but what "you" like... And what you can hear :mrgreen:
Well, I believe Bob Katz is more an editor and book writer, Bob Ohlsson is indeed a great name in the industry, but there is a general consensus over at PSW, Brad Blackwood's board, that in blind tests the chances to hear the differences are 50/50 (Brad and many others work at 44.1), the obvious difference being not in the sample rate used but in the bit depth used (almost everybody spots the 24 over 16).
Whatever the consensus is, I'm with alexb on this. I made self test long ago and to me differences were very obvious (even though I don't own mastering grade monitors).

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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Post by analoginthebox.com » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:49 pm

This discussion is getting to a point that I can not leave uncommented. :shock:

First of all:
Alex, what was your intention for your post?
We never have been into any 96KHz vs 44.1KHz discussion! There is no discussion that 96KHz is "better"!
If you work at 96kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 96kHz it's perfect.
Agreed!
If you work at 96kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 44.1kHz you lose the quality with downsampling and cutting your sound by steep filter.
Partial agreed!
If you work at 44.1kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 96kHz it sounds a little better.
Totally disagreed!

You as as a developer should know the Nebula SRC algorithm that is pretty unacceptable! You could measure it, or use your ears and you will see/hear that a 96KHz -> 44.1KHz converted version gets worse than a native 44.1 version. A simple converter loop confirms that.

Besides that there could appear all kinds of minor issues with converted programs. For the Germanos series, NAT failed completely at deconvolving a simple 96KHz EQ. Giancarlo and I tried to understand this behaviour, but did'nt get a solution. There are issues, period. Just search through the old forum archieves about users reporting strange behaviour...

Then, you put a UA2192 in line with Mytek, but write about the Orpheus being "not so clean (compared to ADA)? :shock:

I repeat: 96KHz is perfect when working @96KHz. 44.1KHz is perfect when working at 44.1KHz. Downsampling: Signal degrading.
The only solution would be to release for both samplerates and double our prices! :cry:
I didn't write crap about any developer
Well, you wrote about me and my partners "not understanding" that 96KHz is "always better" which is right in theory, but NOT when talking about Nebula. This is quite offensive.
I am beta-tester from the first hour of NAT. I remember Giancarlo called me crazy because I had reported an anomaly of ~0.02dB @ 16KHz. He tried me to explain that this should be fine for my converter, but he was wrong. There was a bug...
So, please, hold your tongue and don't post something about me and our developers "not understanding" when we talk about Nebula land.

What I understand is that I won't pass over all the *possible* (not mandatory) issues for 96KHz downsampled programs to our customers who work mainly at 44.1KHz.
Also, think in a long term. What would happen if we release a Doc Fear program (the only one I am aware of that allows you to use a pultec-style high band and low band at same time = more than 1200 samples!) in 96KHz? I can hear 90% of our customers freaking out because they have more than a minute loading time for a single Nebula EP.

But some people are not only avoiding our 44.1KHz but keep complaining about AITB for not releasing everything at 96KHz, so we will release 96KHz in the future as well. This will go along with increased prices. (It means double worktime!)

But now to the more important points to answer than joining this silly discussion about samplerates.
don't find them to be as good as the equivalents
What equivalents are you talking about? There is nothing besides the 1073 that any other developer released as well. So what do you compare? An apple is "better" than an orange? :o
although this release could put some people off CDSoundMaster's
First of all: If you are in love with a 295b, get Michaels version! Our release is absolutely no competition! Both units sound different and Michael did an outstanding job for this EQ. The concept of the Germanos Series is not to offer 50 programs about a single EQ, but to offer a variety of sounds that are all related to each other. It's a little "time machine"... Michael released a perfect and huge library about a single equalizer.

Finally: Demo should be ready later today. :D

Cheers,
Niklas

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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Post by Mimi » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:51 pm

Funny reading these posts... :lol:
I do not really care about that...Better or worse...each has his own point of view and theories.
Here in Brazil We have a monthly magazine that is ostensibly about hardware...
made by several prominent engineers in the country, as : Fabio baumen that builds hardware, and uses the nebula, Mayrton bhaya, carlos freita, engineer who has mastered some materials Mariah carrey...
TranscendingMusic in my opinion was the most consistent, Even a failure can be good... anyone remember the pré amps that had slow slew rate ? a defect that was horrendous for the time... Now this is the best thing in the world.
I have read academic materials dealing with this issue of sampling rate, There are theories that claim that 48 kHz and 96 kHz have more errors than 44.100 and 88.200... :o
Now what is right or wrong ?
Several doctors who are engineers of microchips and DSPs have several theories without a concrete definition, here in Brazil we have Fabio Bauman.
even the legends created about the "best converters" not there is a consensus... :o
There is only one solution use your ears and good taste... And personal preference, without FASCISM.
I use a lot of different developers and get great results... For me subjectively is what matters.
Not that this discussion not good, Is it all good, Samples per second and bla bla bla...
What worries me is the music world crisis... but that is another subjective opinion.
Take care everyone and good mixes... :mrgreen:
Last edited by Mimi on Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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