Scarlet MHE-400 (mastering high-end homebrew eq)

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oøt
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Re: Scarlet MHE-400 (mastering high-end homebrew eq)

Post by oøt » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:54 pm

giancarlo wrote:ehhehehehhe too many things. At the moment this Scarlet is aimed to mastering, not mixing.
Hi, thanks for replying!
Of course there is a lot of things, and even more requests:-)
But just don't completely dismiss the idea, please:-)

The Scarlett is so clean, presise and warm at the same time. It's excellent at shaping sounds in a natural way, even drastic changes!
Vocals, bass, bassdrums, OH, acoustic instruments. Sorting out problems, lifting a sound thats too dark, it's amazing!

For me after trying demos of Scarlet 1 and 2, I understand when you say it's aimed at mastering, it's a heavy beast on my Mac Pro :-) So I've been hesitant to buy it (I don't do mastering) but with the addition of the new lighter version and +-6db version I'll probably cave in and buy it anyways.

Just my thoughts:-) Fantasic Eq!

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Re: Scarlet MHE-400 (mastering high-end homebrew eq)

Post by roeland » Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:21 pm

Is there really nobody that can answer my question about the way the EQ bands in Scarlet are interacting?

The original EQ Scarlet is based upon and also the original models for White EQ, Green and Ivory are all parallel EQ's. Parallel interaction between EQ bands differs highly from the serial interaction which is found in most console and preamp EQ's. The parallel interaction is a decisive part of the sound of the Sontec, Pultec, M*****c, GML and Massive Passive EQ's.

As far as I can find out on this forum, no Aqua EQ has a parallel structure. If that is true, Scarlet, Green, Ivory and White - though they may be very good and beautiful sounding and will all capture a great deal of the analogue distortion and phase shift - miss a very decisive element of the models they are based upon.

One can achieve parallel EQ bands by putting Nebula instances - which only have one EQ band each - in parallel with the use of a chainer like Blue cat's Patchwork. Doing that makes a great difference! Using CD Soundmasters Sontec model or other sampled parallel EQ's in this way, alters their sound completely. Therefore I think it is rather relevant to know how things about parallel EQ interaction stand in the Aqua world. So could someone who knows please answer my question?

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Re: Scarlet MHE-400 (mastering high-end homebrew eq)

Post by giancarlo » Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:54 pm

White is parallel.
We could use a similar approach for magenta, where it could be useful (since the pultec design)
For scarlet the interaction measured was very low, we'll take in account in classic scarlet maybe but I'm not sure. The best approach is adding combinations when interaction really is, not everywhere. There was a possible idea from stedal about a method, but the cure makes more damages than what it is trying to fix. A thing should be clear, delays should be avoid in digital domain (there are even several zero delay techniques described recently by other developers). At the moment scarlet ourperforms original design: on the real device when you increase gain for a band you raise level for all of them.
For the exception of pultecs (where we are already doing lately) in all other cases parallel bands are there just for improving s/n ratio and we don't have this issue
Band separation you could add (they interact slighly less) is waaaay less important than phase issues introduced in iir apprach commonly adopted in several digital plugin...

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Re: Scarlet MHE-400 (mastering high-end homebrew eq)

Post by giancarlo » Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:01 pm

Let's be clear about it: white IS parallel where it should be.

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Re: Scarlet MHE-400 (mastering high-end homebrew eq)

Post by Mannymac » Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:02 pm

+1 one for band interaction in Magenta 4!!! :mrgreen:

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Re: Scarlet MHE-400 (mastering high-end homebrew eq)

Post by SteDal » Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:03 pm

roeland wrote:Is there really nobody that can answer my question about the way the EQ bands in Scarlet are interacting?

The original EQ Scarlet is based upon and also the original models for White EQ, Green and Ivory are all parallel EQ's. Parallel interaction between EQ bands differs highly from the serial interaction which is found in most console and preamp EQ's. The parallel interaction is a decisive part of the sound of the Sontec, Pultec, M*****c, GML and Massive Passive EQ's.

As far as I can find out on this forum, no Aqua EQ has a parallel structure. If that is true, Scarlet, Green, Ivory and White - though they may be very good and beautiful sounding and will all capture a great deal of the analogue distortion and phase shift - miss a very decisive element of the models they are based upon.

One can achieve parallel EQ bands by putting Nebula instances - which only have one EQ band each - in parallel with the use of a chainer like Blue cat's Patchwork. Doing that makes a great difference! Using CD Soundmasters Sontec model or other sampled parallel EQ's in this way, alters their sound completely. Therefore I think it is rather relevant to know how things about parallel EQ interaction stand in the Aqua world. So could someone who knows please answer my question?
Yes, Scarlet works in serial mode, and so do all the other Acqua mixing eq's (Honey, Amethyst, Ochre...).

Other things I know for sure:
- pEArL is serial, just like the HW;
- the same is true for Emerald;
- White's two low bands work in parallel and interact with each other just like the HW.


Please note that in the original S****c (and G*L as well, among others) there are two distinct parallel blocks: the three parametric bands and the two shelves.

The shelves' operating frequencies are too distant from each other to make any relevant difference between serial or parallel configuration.

As far as the three mid bands, from our listening and analytical tests (and comparisons with the HW) it appears that the parallel configuration gives a significantly different result only when two bands work very close in the same frequency region, with a narrow Q. Most of times the difference is negligible.

In everyday use it's much more likely to have an interaction between any parametric band and one of the shelves, frequency wise. But remember that in the original HW parametric bands and shelves don't share the same parallel circuit: they are connected in series, so there's no interaction between them.

Saying this I don't mean that a parallel configuration isn't worth exploring in the future. IMO it's surely a very fascinating field.

Edit: Ooops... GC beat me to it!
:D
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Re: Scarlet MHE-400 (mastering high-end homebrew eq)

Post by giancarlo » Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:06 pm

Before asking, you should realize that ram usage and cpu load increase. Or disk space. We are working in order to minimize issues caused by it. We are increasing complexity of our models but at the same time waiting for faster cpu, faster hdd, more powerful computing. Virtually everything is possible, but not everything is practical in any possible age

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Re: Scarlet MHE-400 (mastering high-end homebrew eq)

Post by roeland » Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:49 pm

Thanks SteDal & Giancarlo!

Your answers are very informative. Your explanations give lots of good reasons for why Scarlet is not parallel and why this is not a big deal. It wasn't a big deal to me I have to stress, I was just interested in the differences between serial and parallel EQ. I am surely going to try out the White EQ and am also still interested in the homebrew version of Scarlet.

I still think it would be a nice option to have a parallel version of the next Scarlet- the one that is not homebrew, but models the Sontec and would love a parallel Magenta, Green and Ivory if this would technically be feasible. It would be nice to have the option to try an get as close to the hardware as possible. In the mean time I am very happy with the parallel version of cdsoundmaster's Sontec and the Massive Passive of Alex B that I can obtain by using BlueCat 's patchwork.

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Re: Scarlet MHE-400 (mastering high-end homebrew eq)

Post by giancarlo » Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:06 pm

there are several pros and several cons. Anyway I measured the original device (I cannot do the same for the homebrew version since it is implementing a single band) and I didn't find the effect so visible. In general there is "less" interaction when you take in account interaction, not more. If you equalize with a tight eq two close point the interact LESS, not MORE. You see the top of curves MORE distinct, so you can equalize with a BIT more precision two different close points, with two distinct tops. The effect anyway is subtle, and it can be emulated with precision simply with a proper sampling of close bands. Number of samples would be approximately twice in the scarlet case.

A different case happens on pultec devices, where there is a cut/boost interaction, because it is an important part of the tone. For all new pultec devices we decided to sample it using the "white technique", which allows to load samples when you need them, so it uses way less resources than before.

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Re: Scarlet MHE-400 (mastering high-end homebrew eq)

Post by RE301 » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:11 am

giancarlo wrote:Before asking, you should realize that ram usage and cpu load increase. Or disk space. We are working in order to minimize issues caused by it. We are increasing complexity of our models but at the same time waiting for faster cpu, faster hdd, more powerful computing. Virtually everything is possible, but not everything is practical in any possible age

Maybe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Wave_Systems

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Re: Scarlet MHE-400 (mastering high-end homebrew eq)

Post by giancarlo » Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:36 am

Ah, not so MUCH :D

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Re: Scarlet MHE-400 (mastering high-end homebrew eq)

Post by Brian » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:43 pm

I'll start saving for a 128-qubit superconducting adiabatic quantum optimization processor immediately!

(continue reading wiki page)

"The price will be approximately US$10,000,000"

Perhaps ... not.
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Re: Scarlet MHE-400 (mastering high-end homebrew eq)

Post by miro » Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:48 am

hope scarlet demo will work soon! trying to demo since days. authorization failing. tech support saying your uploads "expired". let's hope this week! ;)

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Re: Scarlet MHE-400 (mastering high-end homebrew eq)

Post by Nimbatus75 » Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:01 pm

How come the trial version is still not working? I just uploaded the SER and copied the AUT I received in return into the same folder. Even though I did that, Scarlet still tells me to authorize the product... :roll:

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Re: Scarlet MHE-400 (mastering high-end homebrew eq)

Post by giancarlo » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:02 pm

all trial expired. If you are a windows user just contact support now, new versions are ready but you need a new authorization.
For mac osx they are not ready yet!

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