Titanium dbfs meters but no trim - gain staging?

Share your experience, tips & tricks, show off your music.
Post Reply
tiansolo
User Level III
User Level III
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:36 am

Titanium dbfs meters but no trim - gain staging?

Post by tiansolo » Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:25 am

Hi,

Many forum posts re gain staging refer to Nebula and the Acquas with trim control.

How is it suggested to be done in titanium? Should we still try to hit titatanium at -18dbfs rms, -12dbfs peak? Or because the meters are dbfs is there an internal trim set up for us to hit it at 0dbfs peak?

Because I haven't heard the hardware I'm unsure if some compression behaviours are expected or caused by my own error.

Side note, can the dynamics and harmonics response be considered in the same character ballpark as CL1B? Ofc referring to the 1 band version.

Thanks! :D

User avatar
giancarlo
Founder
Founder
Posts: 11126
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:40 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Titanium dbfs meters but no trim - gain staging?

Post by giancarlo » Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:53 am

Yes! Exactly, -18
We sampled both a singleband and a multiband compressor, they were merged. The product is not aimed to be a digital copy, though.

tiansolo
User Level III
User Level III
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:36 am

Re: Titanium dbfs meters but no trim - gain staging?

Post by tiansolo » Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:32 pm

Thank you!
I started off hitting it at 0dbfs peak and loved the smashing/pumping. For a long time I thought this was the compressors 'character' and only reached it for this task.

After reading some forum posts I tried -18dbfs for bass synths. Wow! The added weight is very heavy, but somehow natural and classy. Made me realize how sensitive this baby is, the sweet spot is often very narrow but when you find it - simply amazing. Much easier with proper gain staging.

User avatar
giancarlo
Founder
Founder
Posts: 11126
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:40 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Titanium dbfs meters but no trim - gain staging?

Post by giancarlo » Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:21 am

yes exactly!

Avgatzeblouz
Expert
Expert
Posts: 533
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:13 pm

Re: Titanium dbfs meters but no trim - gain staging?

Post by Avgatzeblouz » Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:35 pm

Just to make sure I got it right : -18 dB FS peak or RMS ?

Thanks.
Samplitude Pro X3 suite - Sequoia 14 / Windows 10 pro x64 / Pearl / Titanium / N4 / Pink / Pink compressors / Prime Comp+Mix+Curve + Caribou comp + Black Eq + Black comp / Sand / Lime / Acquamarine / Emerald / Ultramarine / Silk / Gold / Cobalt / Ebony / Ivory / BlueEQ / Lemon / Magenta / Azure

User avatar
basaristudios
Expert
Expert
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:09 am
Location: New York City
Contact:

Re: Titanium dbfs meters but no trim - gain staging?

Post by basaristudios » Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:51 am

Fs means ful scale, -18 dbFS can only mean full scale. When you see dbu the it is RMS. When they talk about anslog gear how it requires 0dbu that also means -18dbfs but can also be different from meter to meter, depending on calibration.
Prime Total, Nebula Server 3, Scarlett 3, Amethyst 2, Aquamarine 3, Titanium, Magenta 3, Navy, Sand, Pink, Pink Compressors.

User avatar
Support
Expert
Expert
Posts: 3413
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:33 am
Location: Lodi, Lombardia, Italy.
Contact:

Re: Titanium dbfs meters but no trim - gain staging?

Post by Support » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:37 am

Best regards,
Enrique Silveti.
Acustica Audio customer and technical support
http://www.acustica-audio.com

Avgatzeblouz
Expert
Expert
Posts: 533
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:13 pm

Re: Titanium dbfs meters but no trim - gain staging?

Post by Avgatzeblouz » Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:36 pm

[email protected] wrote:Fs means ful scale, -18 dbFS can only mean full scale. When you see dbu the it is RMS. When they talk about anslog gear how it requires 0dbu that also means -18dbfs but can also be different from meter to meter, depending on calibration.
Hey Basari and Enrique, I am aware of the FS, VU, etc..., but not about calibration. So should we hit the plug at -18 dBFS peak or RMS ? -18 dBFS should be the max we are hitting the comp, or the average ? And if the average, what excursion around it can we afford to stay in the normal behaviour of the unit ? 5 dB, 10 dB, 15 dB ?

Thanks.
Samplitude Pro X3 suite - Sequoia 14 / Windows 10 pro x64 / Pearl / Titanium / N4 / Pink / Pink compressors / Prime Comp+Mix+Curve + Caribou comp + Black Eq + Black comp / Sand / Lime / Acquamarine / Emerald / Ultramarine / Silk / Gold / Cobalt / Ebony / Ivory / BlueEQ / Lemon / Magenta / Azure

User avatar
giancarlo
Founder
Founder
Posts: 11126
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:40 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Titanium dbfs meters but no trim - gain staging?

Post by giancarlo » Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:00 pm

dBFS, so the maximum peak level. But most of hardware sounds good if you are above 0dBu, there is an headroom till +22dBu sometimes or even more. But proper gainstaging helps in order to get hamonic distortion more controlled, nebula is not capable of heavy distortion so it will sound sigly better.

Avgatzeblouz
Expert
Expert
Posts: 533
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:13 pm

Re: Titanium dbfs meters but no trim - gain staging?

Post by Avgatzeblouz » Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:12 pm

Hi Giancarlo, thanks for chiming in. What can we expect as a result of hitting very low the comp, or very hard ? Is it just in the harmonic distortion content that the difference will be, or in the behaviour of the unit ? And I guess we can expand this to any Nebula-based stuff, right ?
Samplitude Pro X3 suite - Sequoia 14 / Windows 10 pro x64 / Pearl / Titanium / N4 / Pink / Pink compressors / Prime Comp+Mix+Curve + Caribou comp + Black Eq + Black comp / Sand / Lime / Acquamarine / Emerald / Ultramarine / Silk / Gold / Cobalt / Ebony / Ivory / BlueEQ / Lemon / Magenta / Azure

User avatar
giancarlo
Founder
Founder
Posts: 11126
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:40 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Titanium dbfs meters but no trim - gain staging?

Post by giancarlo » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:15 pm

Only harmonic distortion, but it is very important for the whole result

Avgatzeblouz
Expert
Expert
Posts: 533
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:13 pm

Re: Titanium dbfs meters but no trim - gain staging?

Post by Avgatzeblouz » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:16 pm

OK, thanks a lot for the clarification.
Samplitude Pro X3 suite - Sequoia 14 / Windows 10 pro x64 / Pearl / Titanium / N4 / Pink / Pink compressors / Prime Comp+Mix+Curve + Caribou comp + Black Eq + Black comp / Sand / Lime / Acquamarine / Emerald / Ultramarine / Silk / Gold / Cobalt / Ebony / Ivory / BlueEQ / Lemon / Magenta / Azure

tiansolo
User Level III
User Level III
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:36 am

Re: Titanium dbfs meters but no trim - gain staging?

Post by tiansolo » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:36 pm

Just a heads up. Not all nebula programs are calibrated the same. E.g. G2500 already has -18db trim as default: therefore you hit it at 0dbfs. Whereas most other Nebula programs do not have this: therefore some gain staging is necessary beforehand. The developers sometimes specify.

In this case, I was confused because the meters in titanium are dbfs. In my very personal (in this case, wrong) opinion, this implies that it is calibrated to take signals at 0dbfs. My thinking is that the meters should have been VU, which would show a 0dbfs signal overloading the plugin and indicate to the user to adjust accordingly. But there are also downsides to this approach.

In a perfect world, I'd like titanium to be like the other newer acquas: trim knob included and loading the plugin at -18dbfs by default.

Avgatzeblouz
Expert
Expert
Posts: 533
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:13 pm

Re: Titanium dbfs meters but no trim - gain staging?

Post by Avgatzeblouz » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:20 pm

And a meter we can rely on. Should be in N4.
Samplitude Pro X3 suite - Sequoia 14 / Windows 10 pro x64 / Pearl / Titanium / N4 / Pink / Pink compressors / Prime Comp+Mix+Curve + Caribou comp + Black Eq + Black comp / Sand / Lime / Acquamarine / Emerald / Ultramarine / Silk / Gold / Cobalt / Ebony / Ivory / BlueEQ / Lemon / Magenta / Azure

User avatar
giancarlo
Founder
Founder
Posts: 11126
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:40 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Titanium dbfs meters but no trim - gain staging?

Post by giancarlo » Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:09 pm

tiansolo wrote:Just a heads up. Not all nebula programs are calibrated the same. E.g. G2500 already has -18db trim as default: therefore you hit it at 0dbfs. Whereas most other Nebula programs do not have this: therefore some gain staging is necessary beforehand. The developers sometimes specify.

In this case, I was confused because the meters in titanium are dbfs. In my very personal (in this case, wrong) opinion, this implies that it is calibrated to take signals at 0dbfs. My thinking is that the meters should have been VU, which would show a 0dbfs signal overloading the plugin and indicate to the user to adjust accordingly. But there are also downsides to this approach.

In a perfect world, I'd like titanium to be like the other newer acquas: trim knob included and loading the plugin at -18dbfs by default.
the real issue with this approach is that in the multiband case people find the trim knob confusing, so we tried to create a device which is working even at 0dBFS without strange controls. It happens because most of multiband plug-ins are not "vintage", but "digital" ones. An other point is that in the titanium case levels are safe till 0dBFS, because the big headroom you have in the hardware. Other point, generally you don't use a multiband compressor for shaping harmonics. We added harmonics only for a better realism - they are not there for shaping the tone.

Said that, if you respect gain staging it will be better. My idea is to follow the titanium approach in other multiband releases, while keeping the input-trim approach on everything else (eq, compressors, and now strip channels).
Anyway we are open to suggestions.

Post Reply