Water is out!

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robschroeder
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Re: Water is out!

Post by robschroeder » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:54 am

takboo wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:48 am
Hi,I have some question about WATERM4.I found WATERM4 has two GR meter.Are they completely same thing?
And one more question.I suppose that the fader is for output volume and the volume changes actually but doesn't change output meter indicator :?:
Yes completely same thing. Because of Fader. I am not sure but could be also Prefader so that you see the incoming signal level. Which in my eyes makes more sense as you have the outpulevel on the channel of your DAW. Also nice to see Panning and Phase.

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Re: Water is out!

Post by takboo » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:35 am

Yes completely same thing. Because of Fader. I am not sure but could be also Prefader so that you see the incoming signal level. Which in my eyes makes more sense as you have the outpulevel on the channel of your DAW. Also nice to see Panning and Phase.
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Thank you robschroeder! I'll use the stock meter of my DAW to see whole output level for now. :P

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Re: Water is out!

Post by ndarjeelingmusic » Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:30 pm

Hey guys,

If you are in France or Belgium, I have some discount coupons so don't hesitate to pm me ;)

Cheers
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Re: Water is out!

Post by kenbobplus3db » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:39 pm

robschroeder wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:36 pm
AcusticaPress wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:06 pm
Hey Andrums, I fully agree with this request. Especially when boosting the lows with the EQ it make working with the comp difficult (not only in this strip). My usual order would be filters/EQ first if removing stuff, comp second, EQ third if boosting stuff. So I made the same request myself. It turns out though that if that is the order there will be higher CPU load because of the way the EQ and preamp are calculated as a block by the engine. I am not 100% sure about the exact tech details, but apparently it isn't a simple fix.
Why not add the standalone EQ after the strip? Then you have exactly what you want.

I personally always prefer the single plug-ins instead of the strips as I prefer to use my tools in the same way like you.
I may be snowing myself, but my impression is that when using the strip, the full sample resolution is passed within the plugin from module to module. When using individual plugin modules, the sample resolution is restricted by the audio engine of the host DAW. I think when using multiple modules within the same strip, the strip sounds better than when duplicating the setup on separate plugins within the same family. Better to have a Sand-Lime-Gold routing thingy so that you can filter sidechains and move compression pre and post EQ.

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Re: Water is out!

Post by AcusticaPress » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:19 am

kenbobplus3db wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:39 pm
robschroeder wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:36 pm
AcusticaPress wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:06 pm
Hey Andrums, I fully agree with this request. Especially when boosting the lows with the EQ it make working with the comp difficult (not only in this strip). My usual order would be filters/EQ first if removing stuff, comp second, EQ third if boosting stuff. So I made the same request myself. It turns out though that if that is the order there will be higher CPU load because of the way the EQ and preamp are calculated as a block by the engine. I am not 100% sure about the exact tech details, but apparently it isn't a simple fix.
Why not add the standalone EQ after the strip? Then you have exactly what you want.

I personally always prefer the single plug-ins instead of the strips as I prefer to use my tools in the same way like you.
I may be snowing myself, but my impression is that when using the strip, the full sample resolution is passed within the plugin from module to module. When using individual plugin modules, the sample resolution is restricted by the audio engine of the host DAW. I think when using multiple modules within the same strip, the strip sounds better than when duplicating the setup on separate plugins within the same family. Better to have a Sand-Lime-Gold routing thingy so that you can filter sidechains and move compression pre and post EQ.
Hi kenbobplus3db, no, not really, there should be no difference in the sound quality. We don't oversample and bit depth affects only the noise level of the system, but any modern DAW will have extremely low levels of noise and it won't clip at 0dBFS until you hit the master bus or another plug-in that is designed to clip at this level. There is nothing in a strip that will make the sound of a strip better than the sum of the modules.

The problem with introducing the full routing in Water, as it is in Lime/Sand, is that this takes more CPU and the idea behind the Water strip was to be as light as possible. So I guess this is the reason for the extra options to be avoided. But also, I suspect that Giancarlo wanted a strip with less controls and options - as much as we all love options, and it is good to have them in specific situation, sometimes they simply slow down workflow. So I personally see this one as a simpler and lighter product with plenty of sound.
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Re: Water is out!

Post by Nesto » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:29 pm

Hey guys is the M/S working for anyone? It seems to only solo the mid channel.

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Re: Water is out!

Post by kenbobplus3db » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:59 pm

AcusticaPress wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:19 am
kenbobplus3db wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:39 pm
robschroeder wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:36 pm


Why not add the standalone EQ after the strip? Then you have exactly what you want.

I personally always prefer the single plug-ins instead of the strips as I prefer to use my tools in the same way like you.
I may be snowing myself, but my impression is that when using the strip, the full sample resolution is passed within the plugin from module to module. When using individual plugin modules, the sample resolution is restricted by the audio engine of the host DAW. I think when using multiple modules within the same strip, the strip sounds better than when duplicating the setup on separate plugins within the same family. Better to have a Sand-Lime-Gold routing thingy so that you can filter sidechains and move compression pre and post EQ.
Hi kenbobplus3db, no, not really, there should be no difference in the sound quality. We don't oversample and bit depth affects only the noise level of the system, but any modern DAW will have extremely low levels of noise and it won't clip at 0dBFS until you hit the master bus or another plug-in that is designed to clip at this level. There is nothing in a strip that will make the sound of a strip better than the sum of the modules.

The problem with introducing the full routing in Water, as it is in Lime/Sand, is that this takes more CPU and the idea behind the Water strip was to be as light as possible. So I guess this is the reason for the extra options to be avoided. But also, I suspect that Giancarlo wanted a strip with less controls and options - as much as we all love options, and it is good to have them in specific situation, sometimes they simply slow down workflow. So I personally see this one as a simpler and lighter product with plenty of sound.
I want to understand this better. As I understand your explanation, you are saying that the EQ section of a channel strip hands off a 32B floating point sample to the compressor section which hands off a 32B floating point sample to the preamp section. This is exactly what happens if I have opened the three modules in series on a DAW with a 32B floating point audio bus. It was once intimated to me by GC that the internal processing bit depth in the AA plugins is much higher. So I guess my question is- are you diminishing the bit depth of the audio between processing sections of the channel strip? I've auditioned the two audio paths and believe I've heard a difference.

This also has relevance to my hopes for what Modula could be. In handling the sample processing on a separate platform, it should be possible to create an audio bus which is not constrained by the limitations of the host DAW audio engine and would be oh-so-much closer to ANALOG. While it may seem that a 32B floating point audio bus has a high signal to noise ratio, following an EQ with a compressor with makeup gain takes those small errors and magnifies them. Why not keep the precision right up to the output sample?

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Re: Water is out!

Post by RJHollins » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:41 am

Maybe some useful info:
The Theory

32 bit floating point audio files have a theoretical dynamic range of up to around 1680 dB. Compare that with the 144 dB available from 24 bit recordings and you will realise that it’s quite an improvement! In terms of resolution that’s a lot more than the human brain could ever decipher. Add to that the fact that there is no audio interface currently available that has Analog-to-Digital and Digital-to-Analog converters that are anything but either 16 or 24 bit and you may begin to wonder - what’s the point?
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Re: Water is out!

Post by SteDal » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:00 am

RJHollins wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:41 am
Maybe some useful info:
The Theory

32 bit floating point audio files have a theoretical dynamic range of up to around 1680 dB. Compare that with the 144 dB available from 24 bit recordings and you will realise that it’s quite an improvement! In terms of resolution that’s a lot more than the human brain could ever decipher. Add to that the fact that there is no audio interface currently available that has Analog-to-Digital and Digital-to-Analog converters that are anything but either 16 or 24 bit and you may begin to wonder - what’s the point?
full thread link:
https://ask.audio/articles/pro-tools-10 ... oint-audio
Exactly. And in addition to what RJHollins quoted above, keep in mind that most DAWs nowadays benefit from a 64bitFP internal architecture, which roughly doubles those already impressive dynamic range figures.

More importantly, the 64bitFP format (aka 'Double Precision FP') should allow a virtually perfect data transfer between any chained plug-ins.
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Re: Water is out!

Post by AcusticaPress » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:01 pm

kenbobplus3db wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:59 pm
AcusticaPress wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:19 am
kenbobplus3db wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:39 pm


I may be snowing myself, but my impression is that when using the strip, the full sample resolution is passed within the plugin from module to module. When using individual plugin modules, the sample resolution is restricted by the audio engine of the host DAW. I think when using multiple modules within the same strip, the strip sounds better than when duplicating the setup on separate plugins within the same family. Better to have a Sand-Lime-Gold routing thingy so that you can filter sidechains and move compression pre and post EQ.
Hi kenbobplus3db, no, not really, there should be no difference in the sound quality. We don't oversample and bit depth affects only the noise level of the system, but any modern DAW will have extremely low levels of noise and it won't clip at 0dBFS until you hit the master bus or another plug-in that is designed to clip at this level. There is nothing in a strip that will make the sound of a strip better than the sum of the modules.

The problem with introducing the full routing in Water, as it is in Lime/Sand, is that this takes more CPU and the idea behind the Water strip was to be as light as possible. So I guess this is the reason for the extra options to be avoided. But also, I suspect that Giancarlo wanted a strip with less controls and options - as much as we all love options, and it is good to have them in specific situation, sometimes they simply slow down workflow. So I personally see this one as a simpler and lighter product with plenty of sound.
I want to understand this better. As I understand your explanation, you are saying that the EQ section of a channel strip hands off a 32B floating point sample to the compressor section which hands off a 32B floating point sample to the preamp section. This is exactly what happens if I have opened the three modules in series on a DAW with a 32B floating point audio bus. It was once intimated to me by GC that the internal processing bit depth in the AA plugins is much higher. So I guess my question is- are you diminishing the bit depth of the audio between processing sections of the channel strip? I've auditioned the two audio paths and believe I've heard a difference.

This also has relevance to my hopes for what Modula could be. In handling the sample processing on a separate platform, it should be possible to create an audio bus which is not constrained by the limitations of the host DAW audio engine and would be oh-so-much closer to ANALOG. While it may seem that a 32B floating point audio bus has a high signal to noise ratio, following an EQ with a compressor with makeup gain takes those small errors and magnifies them. Why not keep the precision right up to the output sample?
Ah, ok, I see what your question is and perhaps I didn't explain it all so clear. I think that both RJ and SteDal answered very well about the transfer between the different modules within the DAW's mixer environment. Now Nebula/Acquas' internal resolution is a different matter, but this affects only the part of signal flow where there are actually some calculations and errors that can be accumulated. So higher bit depths make sense in some cases, but that is only within the actual processing part of the plug-in. Once the calculations are done (signal has been EQed, compressed, distorted..) and the signal is ready to be sent to another module, frankly, if you don't gain stage like a complete fool, even 24bits no floating point are perfectly sufficient and 100% transparent (yes, you get some noise, but that is sooooo low that you will never hear it and it will never be an issue).
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Re: Water is out!

Post by CoDee » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:53 pm

Hmmm, I see the Water M4 (Modula Channel) install is included in Aquarius.
Can I install and leave it, or do I need to wait for Modula to actually install the Water M4 into my system?
Thanks
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Re: Water is out!

Post by giancarlo » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:57 am

It was there for a mistake
But if you own, just use it
We don't exclude bugs, the product was not tested

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Re: Water is out!

Post by Rosco » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:11 pm

Hey guys,

Fairly new Acustica user here and so happy to have finally discovered this wonderful company! Bought WATER last night and have a newbie question (probably something obvious that has been explained before, so apologies in advance). I noticed that you have to be very careful when adjusting input and makeup gain in the stand alone compressor in WATER when the 'preamp' is engaged as really abrupt/speaker damaging peaky clipping occurs shortly after a certain point..! However, in the channel strip, you can max everything out (clipping in the DAW obviously), and not get any nasty noise burst surprises, even with both preamps engaged.. is this normal in Acustica world? I.e. the channel strips are safe, but when you use separate modules you can experience massive noise bursts with the preamps engaged if you're not careful? Also, are added/different transformer saturation benefits by using the COMP and EQ modules 'separately' rather than the channel strip as a whole (i.e. does the channel strip save on cpu resources by excluding some of the circuitry modelling in places?)?

Cheers,

Ross

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Re: Water is out!

Post by RJHollins » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:40 am

Rosco wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:11 pm
Hey guys,

Fairly new Acustica user here and so happy to have finally discovered this wonderful company! Bought WATER last night and have a newbie question (probably something obvious that has been explained before, so apologies in advance). I noticed that you have to be very careful when adjusting input and makeup gain in the stand alone compressor in WATER when the 'preamp' is engaged as really abrupt/speaker damaging peaky clipping occurs shortly after a certain point..! However, in the channel strip, you can max everything out (clipping in the DAW obviously), and not get any nasty noise burst surprises, even with both preamps engaged.. is this normal in Acustica world? I.e. the channel strips are safe, but when you use separate modules you can experience massive noise bursts with the preamps engaged if you're not careful? Also, are added/different transformer saturation benefits by using the COMP and EQ modules 'separately' rather than the channel strip as a whole (i.e. does the channel strip save on cpu resources by excluding some of the circuitry modelling in places?)?

Cheers,

Ross
Hi Ross.

I'm one of the beta-testers. Please post to us what format plugin you are using, and the Project Samplerate so that we can test for this.
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Re: Water is out!

Post by HappyBaby » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:04 am

SteDal wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:00 am
Exactly. And in addition to what RJHollins quoted above, keep in mind that most DAWs nowadays benefit from a 64bitFP internal architecture, which roughly doubles those already impressive dynamic range figures.
More importantly, the 64bitFP format (aka 'Double Precision FP') should allow a virtually perfect data transfer between any chained plug-ins.
Yes but you are assuming that the plugin itself is receiving and sending back a 64 bits Floating Point Stream.
I don't know if it is the case and I would like some light on this. Maybe Giancarlo and/or Franci would know?

Errors on 32 bits FP have been demonstrated by Airwindows PurestGain and BitShiftGain. Basically 32 bits FP is 24 bits with a multiplication factor. This multiplication factor is actually 6 dB steps. When you do anything else than exact multiple of 6dB changes, you need to apply dithering to the 24 bits (fixed) part; or you loose details!
Airwindows was demonstrating that with a serie of +10dB, -10dB; and you were loosing low level details, details which are quite important like reverb tails for instance.

Based on this, it can make sense that kenbobplus3db is finding differences between chaining the different modules, and working inside the strip.

Now this is what I would really like to know: what are the streams that each plugin format can handle on which platform.
For example I am on Windows (Reaper DAW), and I am confused. I have read somewhere that VST3 can handle 64 bits FP streams, but VST2 cannot (or maybe some newer version of VST2 can, but I am not sure and cannot find any information on that). For this reason, for example having a VST3 version of Nebula4 available, I am using that preferably over the N4 VST2 version. The Acquas plugin are only available as VST2 for now.

I am hoping that someone could give some light on that. You know, like many here, I am using AcusticaAudio plugins because I am striving toward the best quality available, and those details matters!

PS: Water's compressor is excellent, so is the EQ too. I am very happy that even with the extensive software developpements going on around Modula (which won't fit my workflow), attention is still given to continue to improve the tech. I am waiting impatiently for those advancement to trickle down to all the other plugins!

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