N4 finally available in Aquarius

User avatar
zabukowski
Expert
Expert
Posts: 1554
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:44 pm
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Contact:

Re: N4 finally available in Aquarius

Post by zabukowski » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:02 pm

roeland wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:05 pm
Thanks! I looked at your video. What happens there is that Nuendo writes a series of jumps - not a single line. If you don't record the automation but try and write it by hand by putting two points with different values at some distance from each other in the automation lane (say one at a slow attack and one fast attack) I think you will see clearly what my problem is. You should have a gradual slope between them (a ramp) but I am sure you'll see a jump.

This means you can't draw in the automation by hand - which I do most of the time as it is much faster then playing the whole track and record the automation. If you do what I describe in the VST2 version of N4 you'll see you'll be able to draw a line - or a even a smooth curve in Cubase 9.5. When you use the VST3 version of N4 you can't do that.

If you try other plug ins, you'll find that all of them will default to ramp in both VST2 and VST3. N4 defaults to ramp in VST2, but defaults to jump in VST3. I think that setting is taken from the plug-in for you can't alter a ramp setting into a jump setting in Cubase and I expect this is also not possible in Nuendo. So your video is very clarifying! It shows that we misunderstood each other :D. It also shows that N4 VST3 behaves just like in my case in your example... Hope this helps...
I understand now. Just did a bit of research ... it looks like this behaviour is caused by JUCE framework VST3 wrapper. We are using older version of this framework, so there is no easy fix for this. But we have a plan to upgrade framework, so hopefully this behaviour will improve with new JUCE version - as i understand some changes were done to JUCE, which are directly related to this issue.

roeland
User Level II
User Level II
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:37 am

Re: N4 finally available in Aquarius

Post by roeland » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:00 pm

Great! So you have a solution. I understand however that it will take time to switch to a new JUCE version. I do hope it will happen soon. Could you give an indication as to when you plan to upgrade the framework? I won't pin you down on it... :D

RJHollins
Expert
Expert
Posts: 3681
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:53 pm

Re: N4 finally available in Aquarius

Post by RJHollins » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:24 pm

roeland wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:00 pm
Great! So you have a solution. I understand however that it will take time to switch to a new JUCE version. I do hope it will happen soon. Could you give an indication as to when you plan to upgrade the framework? I won't pin you down on it... :D
I've tried to locate ANY Official documentation that states VST3 sounds, sonically, 'better' than VST-2.
i7-5820k, MSI X99A Plus, 16 GIG Ram, Noctua NH-D14, Win-7 Pro [64-bit], Reaper-64

NVC [Nebula Virtual Controllers]

roeland
User Level II
User Level II
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:37 am

Re: N4 finally available in Aquarius

Post by roeland » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:32 am

You’re right RJHollins. There is no audible difference between N4 VST3 and N4 VST2 in its self, but there is a difference in the way Cubase 9.5 handles VST3 plug-ins that one can definitely hear. Since version 9.5 Cubase processes VST3 plug-ins with its new 64 bit engine while VST2 plug-ins are still processed in 32 bits. The 64 bit engine is slightly better if you use many N4 VST3 plug-ins because the benefits of the 64 bit processing add up. I don’t think you can hear a difference when there is just a single N4 instance, but in my workflow I use many, many N4 instances.

I compose with samples and record the midi, through N4 emulations of pre-amps, consoles, EQ and sometimes compression – so like recording through a console. After this I start a new Cubase project in which each track goes through an N4 tape emulation. After that I start a new Cubase project for the mix. Each track in the mix – sometimes just a few, but sometimes 24 or 32 tracks, has various N4 instances again. I bounce that through the mixbus – again with N4 processing, including bus and tape emulations – to a single track. Like a mixdowm to tape through a console. The mixdown gets is mastered – again with several N4 instances and recorded to a final master track. In this workflow it does make a difference using the 64 bit engine of Cubase, because of the many VST3 instances. A master made this way has a wider and deeper sound stage, reverb tails that you can hear into a bit further, slightly less harsh highs etc. etc.

So N4 VST3 does make an audible difference when used in Cubase 9.5 and in an elaborate workflow using templates as described above. Apart from Cubase 9.5 in all other sequencers using VST2 or VST3 plug-ins is indeed irrelevant. Apart from the better processing in Cubase 9.5 there is always the advantage that VST3 processing stops in Cubase when there is no signal flowing through the plug-in. I work mainly for theater and quiet often I have tacks that are silent for sometime and only have audio wide apart. That means that VST3 saves CPU which is quite an advantage in the case of N4 which is as we all know rather hungry...

User avatar
zabukowski
Expert
Expert
Posts: 1554
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:44 pm
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Contact:

Re: N4 finally available in Aquarius

Post by zabukowski » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:51 am

roeland wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:32 am
You’re right RJHollins. There is no audible difference between N4 VST3 and N4 VST2 in its self, but there is a difference in the way Cubase 9.5 handles VST3 plug-ins that one can definitely hear. Since version 9.5 Cubase processes VST3 plug-ins with its new 64 bit engine while VST2 plug-ins are still processed in 32 bits. The 64 bit engine is slightly better if you use many N4 VST3 plug-ins because the benefits of the 64 bit processing add up. I don’t think you can hear a difference when there is just a single N4 instance, but in my workflow I use many, many N4 instances.

I compose with samples and record the midi, through N4 emulations of pre-amps, consoles, EQ and sometimes compression – so like recording through a console. After this I start a new Cubase project in which each track goes through an N4 tape emulation. After that I start a new Cubase project for the mix. Each track in the mix – sometimes just a few, but sometimes 24 or 32 tracks, has various N4 instances again. I bounce that through the mixbus – again with N4 processing, including bus and tape emulations – to a single track. Like a mixdowm to tape through a console. The mixdown gets is mastered – again with several N4 instances and recorded to a final master track. In this workflow it does make a difference using the 64 bit engine of Cubase, because of the many VST3 instances. A master made this way has a wider and deeper sound stage, reverb tails that you can hear into a bit further, slightly less harsh highs etc. etc.

So N4 VST3 does make an audible difference when used in Cubase 9.5 and in an elaborate workflow using templates as described above. Apart from Cubase 9.5 in all other sequencers using VST2 or VST3 plug-ins is indeed irrelevant. Apart from the better processing in Cubase 9.5 there is always the advantage that VST3 processing stops in Cubase when there is no signal flowing through the plug-in. I work mainly for theater and quiet often I have tacks that are silent for sometime and only have audio wide apart. That means that VST3 saves CPU which is quite an advantage in the case of N4 which is as we all know rather hungry...
Does Cubase 9.5 recognizes N4 as a plugin which supports 64 bit double-precision processing (VST Plug-in Manager) ?? If not, it will be processed in 32 bit, as before.

https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-u ... processing

roeland
User Level II
User Level II
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:37 am

Re: N4 finally available in Aquarius

Post by roeland » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:25 pm

Oops :oops: N4 VST3 is not recognized as 64 bit double precision by Cubase. I hear a difference - true it is very small - between projects in which I use the new 64 bit engine and in project where I only used the 32 bit engine, but that can't be the result of using N4 VST3... I found out that Cubase does only recognize its own VST3 plug-in as 64 bits double precision and in my case besides that cab only see my DMG and Voxengo Plug-ins as double precision. I use DMG EQ in all my projects (though much less than N4 instances), there are always a few Cubase plug-ins and quite often a Voxengo Limiter, so those must be responsible for the difference I hear.

I will still keep using N4 VST3 because it is bypassed automatically when there is no audio flowing through the plug-in and spares CPU. Because I definitely hear a slightly better sound stage with no so many plug-ins running in the double precision 64 bit mode, I think that if all the N4 plug-ins would also run in that mode the difference might become much more pronounced. So I do hope that in the near future N4 VST3 will be recognized as double precision 64 bit by Cubase. Is it possible that this would be the case after upgrading to the latest JUCE framework?

And thanks very much for looking into this so thoroughly! Much appreciated!

User avatar
zabukowski
Expert
Expert
Posts: 1554
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:44 pm
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Contact:

Re: N4 finally available in Aquarius

Post by zabukowski » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:52 pm

roeland wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:25 pm
So I do hope that in the near future N4 VST3 will be recognized as double precision 64 bit by Cubase. Is it possible that this would be the case after upgrading to the latest JUCE framework?
I'll definitively keep an eye on it.

roeland
User Level II
User Level II
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:37 am

Re: N4 finally available in Aquarius

Post by roeland » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:48 am

Thanks!

JRMusic
User Level VI
User Level VI
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:21 am

Re: N4 finally available in Aquarius

Post by JRMusic » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:43 pm

Hi! I find the N4 not being recognised as Double Precision as surprising. I recorded an acoustic track in 64 and 32. Then rendered the 64 track in 32.
Then with an instance of N4 on each track all same settings, found the clarity of 64 great, the 32 somewhat duller and the rendered 64 in 32 engine the same as the recorded in 32.
So it seems to me to be working.
I got the same results before I bought Cubase 9.5 to check that it was worth buying.
So, whether I'm fooling myself, I don't know??? Phsyco-acoustically-compromised! :roll:

roeland
User Level II
User Level II
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:37 am

Re: N4 finally available in Aquarius

Post by roeland » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:40 am

Hi JRMusic! Like you I do hear a difference between the 32 bit and the new 64 bit engine of Cubase 9.5, and like you I was surprised that I did so even in projects where non of the plug-ins I used could handle 64 bit double-precision, so the processing through these plug-ins was 32 bits. I doubted my ears just like you, so I checked if a mixdown in 32 bits would null against a mixdown in 64 bits. If I fooled myself into hearing something that was not there the two tracks would null if I flipped the phase of one of them, but they did not. There is definitely something going on in the 64 bit engine beside double-precision processing that gives a deeper sound stage, deeper lows and both clearer and less harsh high. It is a very small difference which I can hardly notice, but it is certainly there!

I agree that it is rather embarrassing to find that hardly any plug-ins advertised as 64 bit VST3 do in fact process in double-precision - which means that they simply are not 64 bit according to the strict definition that one should regard. I found that all my VST3 plug-ins by BlueCat, FabFilter, iZotope, Melda Production, Zynaptiq, LiquidSonics, VSL and sadly also
AcusticaAudio don't process in 64 bit double-precision and thus are strictly non 64 bit plug-ins. Only the native plug-ins of Steinberg included in Cubase, all plug-ins by Voxengo (even older version of a few years back that I did not update) and all the stuff I have off DMG (again not updated for about three, four years) are 64 bit double-precision.

It must make a difference if all plug-in manufacturers would make their VST3 plug-in double-precision and of course it would be great if AcusticaAudio would lead the way by making their VST3 version of N4 double-precision... If relatively small companies as Voxengo and DMG (both one man businesses, I think) can do it, it must not be very complicated and costly. On the other hand, there might be a catch since big names like iZotope, FabFilter and VSL are not making their plug-ins double-precision. Zabukowksi will know best and might be able to explain what are the pitfalls for a developer when starting with double-precision...

JRMusic
User Level VI
User Level VI
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:21 am

Re: N4 finally available in Aquarius

Post by JRMusic » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:22 am

[quote=roeland .
Thanks for the info roland, much appreciated.
I'm going to have to check out "legit" plugins against "illegitimate" ones to see how much a slice of the pie we are missing, if I can. :?
I've got a feeling that it is not much, but I'll see.
Again, thanks for your reply. John.

User avatar
cpwade
Vip Member
Vip Member
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:42 pm
Location: Colorado
Contact:

Re: N4 finally available in Aquarius

Post by cpwade » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:40 pm

N4 finally available in Aquarius- Thank you for your efforts and hard work team Acustica! Wonderful update!

Paul

Passive Massive
User Level 0
User Level 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:00 am

Re: N4 finally available in Aquarius

Post by Passive Massive » Thu May 03, 2018 3:26 am

cpwade wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:40 pm
N4 finally available in Aquarius- Thank you for your efforts and hard work team Acustica! Wonderful update!

Paul
Sounds great. I have been waiting to update with aquarius.

lou
User Level 0
User Level 0
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:52 pm

Re: N4 finally available on Aquarius

Post by lou » Thu May 24, 2018 5:55 am

teddybeer wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:21 pm
Hi ! I don't have N4 but I want to buy the CPCL library and use it with N4 player for now. I'm curious about the new library, besides the updated Rose and Violet I've read that there's also 12 skinned Nebula libraries. Can you tell me more about these ?
In my Aquarius there's only 2 Nebula trials : Preamps pack and Compressors pack...and most of them seem to be from the old Nebula 3 library.
Thanks !
Hi! I have exactly the same question! Did you ever find out what the deal is with the CPCL libraries for N4 Player? I can't find them anywhere. I have the same frustrations with the limited presets (just preamps and compressors) in Acquarius. Thanks!

User avatar
abuzaynab
User Level IX
User Level IX
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:18 pm

Re: N4 finally available on Aquarius

Post by abuzaynab » Wed May 30, 2018 12:10 am

lou wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 5:55 am
teddybeer wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:21 pm
Hi ! I don't have N4 but I want to buy the CPCL library and use it with N4 player for now. I'm curious about the new library, besides the updated Rose and Violet I've read that there's also 12 skinned Nebula libraries. Can you tell me more about these ?
In my Aquarius there's only 2 Nebula trials : Preamps pack and Compressors pack...and most of them seem to be from the old Nebula 3 library.
Thanks !
Hi! I have exactly the same question! Did you ever find out what the deal is with the CPCL libraries for N4 Player? I can't find them anywhere. I have the same frustrations with the limited presets (just preamps and compressors) in Acquarius. Thanks!
Apparently they are not available just now, despite them being in the description on the N4 player page on the website, for €69. Quite a few people have been asking the same question in the new facebook group, GC is saying by the end of the year, but we are hoping it will come sooner.

Post Reply