new level of NAT transparency

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ngarjuna
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Re: new level of NAT transparency

Post by ngarjuna » Sat Jul 10, 2010 8:50 pm

Owen wrote:
lordnielson wrote:Have Nat rescources been tilted in favour of commercial developers ?
If by commercial developers, you mean, people who:

a) Have a better than average grasp on recording principles and the properties of analogue equipment and the dynamic properties of real world audio systems

b) Have spent a lot of time playing with the tool and have had some input into its development

c) Also have access to high quality dacs/equipment to compare and experiment and have an intention of selling presets

You'd probably be barking up the right tree.

I believe personally that the tooling is:

Complicated enough that it's not like a microwave oven for most applications i.e. you hit the defrost button and at some point your chicken is adequetely defrosted (but even with modern appliances, it takes some common sense approach to understand what "Defrost" means when examining your food afterwards right?)

Significantly different from most other applications given the wide range of possible, potential applications

Close to a paint by numbers system in certain cases, but only if you understand the context of certain paradigms and use the templates as a starting point. Some tasks are more of a "doodle" than others
CDSoundMaster wrote:there are some things that still require fine tuning
Correct. The tooling/templates are not perfect as is for all possible permutations of every type of capture. I might also add that such a statement is not analogous to "it's full of flaws" either.

I'll leave CDSM to answer his own statements......

Owen ;)
Well yes, obviously people with more experience and better equipment have the potential to get better results, that much is common sense.

But what about the so-called Platinum package? I have been a Nebula user (and pretty involved in several Nebula forums and communities) for a while now and the first I ever heard of this was in a thread this week; so honestly, I have no idea what this is. Is it the equivalent of an SDK? Is it a different version of Nat? Is it priced in such a way that it only really makes sense to commercial developers? These are honest questions, like I said I have no info on any such product or how to buy it or why I would even want to (in my case, as a non-developer, I'm guessing I probably wouldn't). Is the actual functionality different or is Platinum more like a licensing platform for selling libraries?

The issue of the fine tuning is, to me, the biggest mystery about NAT. Every developer has alluded to the fact that the programs were really close after a good NAT session but still required some significant "tweaking" to get them the rest of the way. What does this mean, exactly? Maybe the third party developers won't want to share secrets like this (although CDSoundmaster doesn't seem to be holding anything back, typical of his helpfulness in answering questions for the community) but it seems to be the big difference between programs that are "almost there" and programs that "are all the way there".

Even without spilling a detailed, step by step process document, what is meant by "tweaking the programs"? I think that information would be a big help to amateur developers.

I do agree with you that none of these questions suggest that NAT is flawed or broken; it's a knowledge gap. If Nebula didn't have a tool and a dedicated community based on sampling our gear this knowledge gap wouldn't really be much of an issue. But for perfectionists who want their non-commercial programs to be the very best they can be, it could seem like information is being withheld (I don't think that's really what's happening but I can see how someone might think that).

Personally, I see closing that knowledge gap as being a benefit to everyone, commercial and non-commercial developers alike; and that is translated directly into a benefit to the user base. I believe this dual-channel approach to third party programs is ideal; surely there are some products and projects that are better suited to one style than the other. Which is why I'm so appreciative when people like CDSoundmaster go to such lengths to share their information, that really is huge.

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Re: new level of NAT transparency

Post by futur2 » Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:28 pm

ngarjuna wrote: Even without spilling a detailed, step by step process document, what is meant by "tweaking the programs"? I think that information would be a big help to amateur developers.
very good post!

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Re: new level of NAT transparency

Post by trickster » Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:00 am

^^^Yep

Firstly, props to CDSM for put some information out there. It sometimes feels as though these sorts of questions attract a pretty defensive response when I think they are valid questions from a user base that generally incredibly supportive of all the developers and show an amazing amount of resilience for the complicated (but hugely worthwhile) process that is involved with being a Nebula user.

I want to add my concern that the current method of sharing NAT information may exclude Neb/NAT owners who are willing to put effort into sampling great gear but are not privvy to the channels of information that other members are (whether they are commercial interests or not). These people may or may not be able or willing to tune a set of programs to a commercial product level but I for one would still be interested in the results and the whole community may benefit. Lord Neilsons pre amp and compressor programs are a case in point; they may not be commercially viable but they sure as hell are appreciated by a lot of users. There are also people out there for who the commercial process itself is not something they want to engage in but would still be interested in sharing a more or less commercially viable product.

CDSM's page is a great first step and I hope we might be able to find more solutions for encouraging gear sampling at all levels.

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Re: new level of NAT transparency

Post by cdsoundmaster » Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:26 am

I agree that it is a good idea to encourage the most beneficial ethics and benefit to community for sampling at all levels.

You can help me with the next stage of this process and send me the group of templates that come with the NAT Platinum package. I don't work from what was distributed so some advice can only come from seeing what users have to work with.

You can zip the templates and email them to me.
trickster wrote:^^^Yep

Firstly, props to CDSM for put some information out there. It sometimes feels as though these sorts of questions attract a pretty defensive response when I think they are valid questions from a user base that generally incredibly supportive of all the developers and show an amazing amount of resilience for the complicated (but hugely worthwhile) process that is involved with being a Nebula user.

I want to add my concern that the current method of sharing NAT information may exclude Neb/NAT owners who are willing to put effort into sampling great gear but are not privvy to the channels of information that other members are (whether they are commercial interests or not). These people may or may not be able or willing to tune a set of programs to a commercial product level but I for one would still be interested in the results and the whole community may benefit. Lord Neilsons pre amp and compressor programs are a case in point; they may not be commercially viable but they sure as hell are appreciated by a lot of users. There are also people out there for who the commercial process itself is not something they want to engage in but would still be interested in sharing a more or less commercially viable product.

CDSM's page is a great first step and I hope we might be able to find more solutions for encouraging gear sampling at all levels.

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Re: new level of NAT transparency

Post by ericus » Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:14 am

CDSoundMaster wrote:I agree that it is a good idea to encourage the most beneficial ethics and benefit to community for sampling at all levels.

You can help me with the next stage of this process and send me the group of templates that come with the NAT Platinum package. I don't work from what was distributed so some advice can only come from seeing what users have to work with.

You can zip the templates and email them to me.
Hi Mangel! Did you mean NAT Pro (NAT 3)? If I understand correctly, Nat Platinum is only for commercial devs.

If you were talking about NAT 3, you can find the latest templates here:

http://www.acustica-audio.com/forum/ind ... =viewtopic

Eric

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Re: new level of NAT transparency

Post by cdsoundmaster » Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:10 am

Hi Eric,

Whatever 'best' public version NAT that users are using is what I'm talking about. I don't keep up with the naming of public release versions. I thought someone in the thread called this Platinum. If the update Giancarlo linked to is what is being used in the best public release version then I suppose NAT3.

It's easiest for me to get one zip of the most current update from someone here.
ericus wrote:
CDSoundMaster wrote:I agree that it is a good idea to encourage the most beneficial ethics and benefit to community for sampling at all levels.

You can help me with the next stage of this process and send me the group of templates that come with the NAT Platinum package. I don't work from what was distributed so some advice can only come from seeing what users have to work with.

You can zip the templates and email them to me.
Hi Mangel! Did you mean NAT Pro (NAT 3)? If I understand correctly, Nat Platinum is only for commercial devs.

If you were talking about NAT 3, you can find the latest templates here:

http://www.acustica-audio.com/forum/ind ... =viewtopic

Eric

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Re: new level of NAT transparency

Post by lordnielson » Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:31 am

trickster wrote:Lord Neilsons pre amp and compressor programs are a case in point; they may not be commercially viable but they sure as hell are appreciated by a lot of users. There are also people out there for who the commercial process itself is not something they want to engage in but would still be interested in sharing a more or less commercially viable product.
This ain't rocket science. Developers aren't demi-gods. And I think it better we try to help each other make Nebula (and Nat) the ultimate plugin before we start milking it and locking it down.

Some of the programs I've done are as good as some of the ones I've paid for. It's a common human flaw (with me as well) to think that price tag means better.

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Re: new level of NAT transparency

Post by trickster » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:55 pm

^^I agree that yours are as good as some commercial ones. They're awesome. I hope you didn't think I was running you down because I meant quite the opposite.

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Re: new level of NAT transparency

Post by lordnielson » Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:29 pm

trickster wrote:I hope you didn't think I was running you down because I meant quite the opposite.
Not at all mate. It was a general reply. :)

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Re: new level of NAT transparency

Post by cdsoundmaster » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:00 am

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the zip!

I'll go through these during the week and start adding some info. I hope it will be helpful.
ericus wrote:
CDSoundMaster wrote:I agree that it is a good idea to encourage the most beneficial ethics and benefit to community for sampling at all levels.

You can help me with the next stage of this process and send me the group of templates that come with the NAT Platinum package. I don't work from what was distributed so some advice can only come from seeing what users have to work with.

You can zip the templates and email them to me.
Hi Mangel! Did you mean NAT Pro (NAT 3)? If I understand correctly, Nat Platinum is only for commercial devs.

If you were talking about NAT 3, you can find the latest templates here:

http://www.acustica-audio.com/forum/ind ... =viewtopic

Eric

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Re: new level of NAT transparency

Post by SWAN » Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:31 pm

I guess there is a potential business conflict with 3rd party commercial program creation and allowing everybody to have the potential to produce programs at the same level. I dont think there is anything sinister going on tho. I dont think its up to the 3rd party devs to give up all their hard won techniques - more Acustica to provide helpful info...

Its pretty well known that Michael, Velinas/Niklas, Alex B have all been instrumental in helping develop the Nebula concept...I can understand why they might get special treatment...whilst I think it was a happy communal development - I dont think anyone ever officially labelled Nebula as a socialist experiment...but Nat was included and payed for as part of a package so I think everyone should get proper instruction...
There has been a paucity of straight forward info available - and that I think is purely down to the humble roots with which Nebula started, a close network of initial samplers exchanging info on the beta forums, and simple disorganisation...

So yes bring forth improved NAT tutorial!
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Re: new level of NAT transparency

Post by lordnielson » Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:23 am

SWAN wrote:I dont think its up to the 3rd party devs to give up all their hard won techniques - more Acustica to provide helpful info...
Agree 100%

I think that Michael (CDsoundmaster) and Niklas (AITB) have helped a lot of people with Nebula and Nat. That's a big task on ones free time.

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Re: new level of NAT transparency

Post by cdsoundmaster » Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:52 pm

Thank you for for the kind words. It means a lot!
lordnielson wrote:
SWAN wrote:I dont think its up to the 3rd party devs to give up all their hard won techniques - more Acustica to provide helpful info...
Agree 100%

I think that Michael (CDsoundmaster) and Niklas (AITB) have helped a lot of people with Nebula and Nat. That's a big task on ones free time.

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Re: new level of NAT transparency

Post by enriquesilveti » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:07 pm

3rd party commercial delevopers push Acustica Audio requesting Nebula new features for make theirs library best, in the same way Acustica Audio push 3rd party commercial delevopers, eg. Aqua Engine and Nebula Server. We have a huge new features request list for all AA products (including free releases) but at the same time we want to give to customer the best product so we can only spend 50% of time into add new features, and less time for manuals and tutorials.

Saludos, Enrique
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Re: new level of NAT transparency

Post by undertone » Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:04 am

enriquesilveti wrote: We have a huge new features request list for all AA products (including free releases) but at the same time we want to give to customer the best product so we can only spend 50% of time into add new features, and less time for manuals and tutorials.

Saludos, Enrique
Hi,

Like others, I have an interest in sampling some of my favorite processing presets before I get rid of otherwise rarely used processors. But there just isn't currently enough information to do a complete and proper job without a lot of trial and error, especially when it comes to TMV effects. From my brief experience there would likely still be a lot of trial and error even if I knew what I was doing!

A quick look at the raw xml of the Nat session presets shows that there's a lot of parameters that don't seem to be in the GUI, which means that a lot of sampling preparation and optimization is handled in the template before you even start sampling.

There's clearly a lot of information and I can see how a manual or tutorial can be a lot of work. How about a youTube video? (whatever happened to the nebulatutorial duo? They really did a nice job on the first one...) Or a simple glossary of definitions? That would go some way in alleviating the problem. Is such a document available?

Ok. Back to reverse engineering... ;)

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