Automatic Gain Compensation

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wagz
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Automatic Gain Compensation

Post by wagz » Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:38 pm

I have another request. Please, add automatic gain compensation to Nebula. That would save me so much time. Thanks.

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Re: Automatic Gain Compensation

Post by RE301 » Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:04 pm

User Mannymac posted this in another thread:

Mannymac wrote:@basarstudios

If you want to make sure you hit Acqua plugins at a good level I recommend this tool

http://www.hornetplugins.com/plugins/hornet-vu-meter/

If you switch auto gain on the audio will automatically be set to -18 dbfs RMS which is a perfect level for dynamic distortion. Then you can dial the input knobs on your acqua plugin to set the harmonic distortion as you like ;)

Don't use this with Drums!! Drums have such fast peaks that an RMS meter can't catch them and you will overload your tracks with this. But it is amazing for bass, vocals, guiatrs, synths etc!

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Re: Automatic Gain Compensation

Post by wagz » Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:04 pm

Thanks! Unfortunately, I literally bought the Klanghelm VUMT plugin maybe an hour or so ago. I have been using the Sleepytime VU meter.

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Re: Automatic Gain Compensation

Post by wagz » Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:18 pm

RE301 wrote:User Mannymac posted this in another thread:

Mannymac wrote:@basarstudios

If you want to make sure you hit Acqua plugins at a good level I recommend this tool

http://www.hornetplugins.com/plugins/hornet-vu-meter/

If you switch auto gain on the audio will automatically be set to -18 dbfs RMS which is a perfect level for dynamic distortion. Then you can dial the input knobs on your acqua plugin to set the harmonic distortion as you like ;)
Hornet is having a flash sale. I just bought the VU meter for $2.67 USD.

I'll try your workaround. I usually try to maintain the peak or RMS levels when toggling plugins on/off. So, I would still like Nebula (and every plugin that I own) to have a fully functional AGC feature. It seems like it would be possible, considering that it is on some other popular plugins. I bought MJUC a while ago. It has AGC. (I'm just saying....)

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Re: Automatic Gain Compensation

Post by basaristudios » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:20 pm

Hornet Meter actually sucks for this. It will only compensate
when you lower the input to it...if you wanna keep switching
the Bypass on and off to compare Hornet will not compensate the
level going back up to where it was before. It will just lower
it and stay there.
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Re: Automatic Gain Compensation

Post by wagz » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:33 pm

[email protected] wrote:Hornet Meter actually sucks for this. It will only compensate
when you lower the input to it...if you wanna keep switching
the Bypass on and off to compare Hornet will not compensate the
level going back up to where it was before. It will just lower
it and stay there.
Thanks for your info. Well, I already bought the thing.

I find AGC to be a very nice tool to make sure that one isn't swayed one way other other (due to vol. differences) when mixing or processing files. Everything should have AGC, in my opinion.

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Re: Automatic Gain Compensation

Post by jfjer379 » Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:58 pm

[email protected] wrote:Hornet Meter actually sucks for this. It will only compensate
when you lower the input to it...if you wanna keep switching
the Bypass on and off to compare Hornet will not compensate the
level going back up to where it was before. It will just lower
it and stay there.
I like the hornet , but it could be better for the reason's you just mentioned , this can be easely fixed with a update i think so i im gonna send an email
i have both VUMT and HORNET :)
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Re: Automatic Gain Compensation

Post by enriquesilveti » Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:25 pm

wagz wrote:I have another request. Please, add automatic gain compensation to Nebula. That would save me so much time. Thanks.
Perception of loudness is unique to each person, for that reason was developed ITU 1770. So we can add a auto gain feature that will work only for the developer/tester but not for any one and that is the reason a lot for people complain about ITU 1770 normallization.
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Re: Automatic Gain Compensation

Post by Mannymac » Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:11 pm

About the Hornet Plugin:

The way best way to use this is to insert it before Nebula/Acqua plugin/s and then let your song run through once in total. (Important!)

Reason for this is:

The plugin can obviously only react to what it has "heard"/processed before.

That means if you only use the Automatic Gain compensation for the quieter parts e.g. a Verse and all of a souden you have louder peaks during a chorus but didn't let the VU Meter process it you will overload Nebula/Acqua.
So sit back, grab a tea and let the section/song run through the plugin one time in total and then your levels should be fine ;)

I agree with basari: Bypassing it will sort of resete the "AGC", which is not good. If you use it the way I outlined above it should give you a good starting point for beginners.
More advanced users can obviously just use and calibrated VU Meter and hit the 0 VU point manually or use the newer broadcasting standards.

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Re: Automatic Gain Compensation

Post by Mannymac » Sat Jan 02, 2016 6:46 pm

If you want to dive deeper ito this (to me very interesting) topic of loudness and gain staging I can also recommend this brilliant article by SoundOnSound magazine

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb14/a ... ss-war.htm

You need to buy the PDF for full access if you are not a subscriber which will only cost you 1,5€ or so.
It really is worth it.

For a budget friendly LUFS meter with great functionality check out
https://www.klangfreund.com/lufsmeter/

Brilliant measurement plugin with great extra functions.

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Re: Automatic Gain Compensation

Post by enriquesilveti » Sat Jan 02, 2016 7:07 pm

Same information from EBU r-128 tour with Florian from EBU and Thomas from TC Electronic.

Go http://www.tcelectronic.com/loudness/li ... -glossary/

We use tb-ebuloudness plug-in (http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-ebuloudness/) + RX5 and LC2n.
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Re: Automatic Gain Compensation

Post by RJHollins » Sat Jan 02, 2016 7:44 pm

Should we not distinguish a difference in 'apparent loudness' and the measurement of level [voltage] sent IN/OUT of a piece of hardware or plugin ?

A plug-in chain needs to be mindful of 'gain structure' [UNITY gain] ... what goes IN = What goes OUT. HOWEVER, internal to the plugin or hardware, we can run levels hot/cold/neutral.

This has nothing to do with 'perceived volume'.

2nd:
Automatic Gain Compensation [AGC] can be most useful. HOWEVER ... isn't there always one :roll:
A string of FX in a chain, each with AGC function, can create a level nightmare. Each plugin is trying to adapt to the output of the plug ahead of it. As the prior plug makes level changes, each following plugin is having to re-calibrate its output ... which then feeds the next plugin ... and so forth.

Then it's decided to make a change in the plugin settings, order, bypass ... whatever.

3. Consider this scenario of active AGC while RENDERING a track :o

Back in the pure analogue daze, we had a signal generator [built into console] used to generate cal tones [sine]. Also included Pink/WHITE noise.

I've been working/testing a calibration idea/technique that would provide a PRACTICAL, working solution. Using standard tools [plugs] ... still requires manual adjustment. There are plenty of variables that can influence the results [thus the testing continues], but the goal is to find a faster technique to balance a FXChain that does NOT require playing the track from start to finish. Those who run 24+ tracks understand well .... even a single stereo track for mastering can be a time consuming process.

I'm always looking for improved ways. I can confirm that this cal technique has generally worked well ... and the sonic IMPROVEMENT through a balanced chain is much noticed :mrgreen:
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Re: Automatic Gain Compensation

Post by Mannymac » Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:43 pm

Absolutely agree with you RJHollins!I would be hugely interested in hearing more about your calibration technique

One way to speed up the whole "running through" process could be in some cases/DAWS to bounce down your song to disc, which will also make the plugin go through the entire song.
Hugely depends on whatever processing you have switched on by the time you are doing this of course.
You can then delete the bounced file because you don't need it oviously.
Hope this makes some sense ;)


What I have found though is that gain staging is not talked about enough especially with people my age (I'm 25).
Most of us young ones do not yet fully understand concepts like headroom etc.
Look at the countless internet threads of people asking where that "beeping,high putched" noise comes from when going into Nebula on all the forums to proof my point.
So anything that helps people to understand gain staging etc is a good thing imho. ;)
To me any Automatic Gain control can be a useful tool for quick and dirty level setting on a single track especially before going INTO whatever chain of plugins they have. Especially with software that so closely models analog gear like the AA tools.

(Or the Softube CL1B, which is calibrated for -18dbfs as well for example.)

Now most plugins have an output knob so of course compensating for whatever gain increase or decrease your processing has caused must still be done. :mrgreen:

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Re: Automatic Gain Compensation

Post by wagz » Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:43 am

enriquesilveti wrote:
wagz wrote:I have another request. Please, add automatic gain compensation to Nebula. That would save me so much time. Thanks.
Perception of loudness is unique to each person, for that reason was developed ITU 1770. So we can add a auto gain feature that will work only for the developer/tester but not for any one and that is the reason a lot for people complain about ITU 1770 normallization.
I think that I understand your point. It makes sense. I agree with you that perception of loudness varies from one individual to another. That kind of brings me back to my other request (for numerical entry on the output knobs...or higher resolution), though. I'm not having much fun trying to balance these Nebula knobs to match the IN/OUTPUT levels.

Still, I wouldn't mind an AGC feature using some sort of standard of loudness measurement, if there is such a thing, as a starting point. It would be fine, as long as there was still a high resolution output knob...for whenever I choose to ignore what the meter says.

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Re: Automatic Gain Compensation

Post by wagz » Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:44 am

Mannymac wrote:If you want to dive deeper ito this (to me very interesting) topic of loudness and gain staging I can also recommend this brilliant article by SoundOnSound magazine

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb14/a ... ss-war.htm

You need to buy the PDF for full access if you are not a subscriber which will only cost you 1,5€ or so.
It really is worth it.

For a budget friendly LUFS meter with great functionality check out
https://www.klangfreund.com/lufsmeter/

Brilliant measurement plugin with great extra functions.
Thanks, Mannymac. I'm gonna check into those. I think that there may be an LUFS meter built into my DAW. I'm going to try that thing out.

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