Cupwise Real Spaces - Chambers Part A - Chambers of Myth

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Re: Cupwise Real Spaces - Chambers Part A - Chambers of Myth

Post by babiuk » Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:45 pm

Only picture I know too.
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Re: Cupwise Real Spaces - Chambers Part A - Chambers of Myth

Post by RE301 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:41 pm

Fwiw - here's a rather fabulous document in the use of Gold Star chambers - Tijuana Brass , recorded in 1964 @ Gold Star (supposedly).. the fidelity, instrumentation, arrangements & dynamics I think help to allow the listener to digest the chamber sounds more than the in yer face Spector productions... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=metQsSB0ojI
(Track 4 @ 7:00 'I've Grown Accustomed To Her Face' in particular is absolutely drenched in the chamber..)

The decay of the chambers seems pretty short, similar actually to the Chambers of Myth..

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Re: Cupwise Real Spaces - Chambers Part A - Chambers of Myth

Post by babiuk » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:16 pm

I think you may be meaning mainly the congas or bongos which are very illustrative of echo sound, aren't you?
It is a different arrangement from spector productions, being these more denses. This and the choice of quantity of echo signal being used may be the reason of the differences in sound, but basically I find the echo sound is the same, as it is on some pet sounds recordings made on goldstar.

Anyway I will have to try this myth chamber, you are making my goldstar crazeness to be at highest level, hehe
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Re: Cupwise Real Spaces - Chambers Part A - Chambers of Myth

Post by wagz » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:21 pm

babiuk wrote:Wagz,
Altiverb has sampled the echo chambers of Sunset Studios(now Cello) and they are amazing. It is not Goldstar but it is almost the same, beach boys, sinatra and infinite more classic redordings there.
I don't doubt that Sunset's/Cello's actual chamber sounds great. I have used Altiverb's Sunset chamber before. However, I don't own Altiverb. And, it's pricy, IMO. I do, however, already own Nebula. Given the quality of Tim's Chambers of Myth and his other verb programs, I believe that he would probably be able to produce a 'Sunset' program that rival's the accuracy of Altiverb's version, if he were given the opportunity to sample that same room. I guess that I'm also basing my opinion on my understanding that N4 employs a type of dynamic sampling tech, whereas Altiverb's engine relies on static impulse responses. (If I'm wrong, please, correct me on any of this. I really don't intend to spread misinformation.) I don't think that Altiverb's version uses anything like Fusion IR's, either. So, I have it in my head that Acustica's tech would allow for a more accurate 'Sunset' chamber to be presented.
RE301 wrote:Wagz - that's some great detective work, nice job! :-)

Food for thought...

In that audiogeekzine article, the chamber dimensions of "a mere 2×3 feet" must be wildly inaccurate, or perhaps some kind of Spinal Tap-esque misquote...

I find it interesting that out of all the things concerning the studio, David Gold, even decades later, remained secretive about the chambers.. in that youtube clip where he says the chambers were destroyed, I almost have to wonder is it really true or is he saying it to throw people off the trail? :-0

Here is what is apparently the only known photo of one of the chambers taken on the studio's last day in business.. (btw note, the speaker is facing the wall)

Image
Thanks. I glanced over the info, saw the dimensions, and I guess I figured that they were actually talking about the little entrance into the room...

I dug around yesterday and only found that one picture of the Gold Star chambers. Supposedly, it cames from a series of photos that were taken of their chambers.

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Re: Cupwise Real Spaces - Chambers Part A - Chambers of Myth

Post by babiuk » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:28 pm

I am not Altiverb guy at all, it is just everything involving some 50s60s sound resources makes my day so that is why it is useful for me. Recently I discovered the free samplicity gold presets and they are on my audio world now, and they are free and you can use them with many ir players.
Of course nebula would be THE BEST way to recreate this chamber but it is not available anymore. I would like if anyone of you could create any neb program close to goldstar echo chamber
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Re: Cupwise Real Spaces - Chambers Part A - Chambers of Myth

Post by RE301 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:29 pm

babiuk wrote:I think you may be meaning mainly the congas or bongos which are very illustrative of echo sound, aren't you?
It is a different arrangement from spector productions, being these more denses. This and the choice of quantity of echo signal being used may be the reason of the differences in sound, but basically I find the echo sound is the same, as it is on some pet sounds recordings made on goldstar.

Anyway I will have to try this myth chamber, you are making my goldstar crazeness to be at highest level, hehe

Yes - I mean this album is a good one to help analyse and study the Gold Star chamber(s) with its delicious, shimmering complexity! :-) .. and as for Gold Star craziness - visiting the parking lot on which GS once stood, while on your honeymoon, takes the cake! :-) .. that's dedication for sure!

@ Cupwise, seeing as you have access to these existing chambers of myth, perhaps the owners would be open to the idea of cheap, simple modifications like cement/plaster coating and maybe more shapes in the walls :-0 ...

Doing plaster would be dead easy DIY especially since the cosmetics don't matter.. the main issue I can think of would be how it would stick to a painted surface such as in the chamber of myth pics - one might have to affix wire mesh first.. and do 2 or 3 coats to build up to a thick coat...voila! :-0

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Re: Cupwise Real Spaces - Chambers Part A - Chambers of Myth

Post by wagz » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:50 pm

RE301 wrote:Fwiw - here's a rather fabulous document in the use of Gold Star chambers - Tijuana Brass , recorded in 1964 @ Gold Star (supposedly).. the fidelity, instrumentation, arrangements & dynamics I think help to allow the listener to digest the chamber sounds more than the in yer face Spector productions... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=metQsSB0ojI
(Track 4 @ 7:00 'I've Grown Accustomed To Her Face' in particular is absolutely drenched in the chamber..)

The decay of the chambers seems pretty short, similar actually to the Chambers of Myth..
I couldn't open that link because I'm in the USA. Here's the one that I listened to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oRJAm-FM28 That chamber sounds great.
babiuk wrote:I think you may be meaning mainly the congas or bongos which are very illustrative of echo sound, aren't you?

Anyway I will have to try this myth chamber, you are making my goldstar crazeness to be at highest level, hehe
That bongo-verb is very nice!

BTW, I have CDSM's 'The Apex Tape Collection for Nebula Pro' (Some of it's presets seem strange and phasey to me. So, I often wonder if they are accurate.) Also, I have ribbon mic programs from Henry Olonga. Maybe I could get
really close to the sounds of that records by creating a send in Cubase with an N4 insert chain like this:


1. APEX tape ( I need to research the machines and tape they used @ Gold Star)
2. (This is for predelay.) A simple, clean sample delay or delay plugin with zero feedback
3. Tube console LINE IN or a tube mic preamp
4. Henry O. ribbon mic - something that cuts off everything above 8khz
5. Cupwise's Chambers of Myth
6. Tube console FX bus
Last edited by wagz on Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cupwise Real Spaces - Chambers Part A - Chambers of Myth

Post by wagz » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:56 pm

RE301 wrote: Yes - I mean this album is a good one to help analyse and study the Gold Star chamber(s) with its delicious, shimmering complexity! :-) .. and as for Gold Star craziness - visiting the parking lot on which GS once stood, while on your honeymoon, takes the cake! :-) .. that's dedication for sure!

@ Cupwise, seeing as you have access to these existing chambers of myth, perhaps the owners would be open to the idea of cheap, simple modifications like cement/plaster coating and maybe more shapes in the walls :-0 ...

Doing plaster would be dead easy DIY especially since the cosmetics don't matter.. the main issue I can think of would be how it would stick to a painted surface such as in the chamber of myth pics - one might have to affix wire mesh first.. and do 2 or 3 coats to build up to a thick coat...voila! :-0
I remember that Gold Star actually had two chambers, according to what I read. So, I wonder how they were different (if at all) and whether or not certain signals fed both chambers...

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Re: Cupwise Real Spaces - Chambers Part A - Chambers of Myth

Post by RE301 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:16 pm

wagz wrote:
1. APEX tape ( I need to research the machines and tape they used @ Gold Star)
2. Tube console LINE IN or a tube mic preamp
3. Henry O. ribbon mic - something that cuts off everything above 8khz
4. Cupwise's Chambers of Myth
5. Tube console FX bus
In this clip of a Gold Star session / Sonny & Cher 1966 the discernable tape machines appear to be Ampex 350 / 351 style tube tape decks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhTjLy_LTcA

This site has a freq response chart of the RCA 6203 mic - http://www.coutant.org/rca6203/index.html , only seems to around a -5db high drop before the 10khz region but only when in the velocity position... maybe they had some kind of impedance problems if they felt there was 'nothing' above 8k?

In your chain above, don't forget a predelay to the chamber, IMO this is key for the reverb sound to open up and bloom..

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Re: Cupwise Real Spaces - Chambers Part A - Chambers of Myth

Post by wagz » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:38 pm

RE301 wrote:
wagz wrote:
1. APEX tape ( I need to research the machines and tape they used @ Gold Star)
2. Tube console LINE IN or a tube mic preamp
3. Henry O. ribbon mic - something that cuts off everything above 8khz
4. Cupwise's Chambers of Myth
5. Tube console FX bus
In this clip of a Gold Star session / Sonny & Cher 1966 the discernable tape machines appear to be Ampex 350 / 351 style tube tape decks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhTjLy_LTcA

This site has a freq response chart of the RCA 6203 mic - http://www.coutant.org/rca6203/index.html , only seems to around a -5db high drop before the 10khz region but only when in the velocity position... maybe they had some kind of impedance problems if they felt there was 'nothing' above 8k?

In your chain above, don't forget a predelay to the chamber, IMO this is key for the reverb sound to open up and bloom..
Sweet! Thanks for posting that info on the tape machine and the mic. What I said about 8k kinda stems from the article in the pic that I previously uploaded. Thank you for providing specs.

I edited my post immediately after I posted it because I realized that I forgot to add pre-delay. Doh! I'm currently working on a little project. So, I didn't see your post until just now. Once I refreshed the page, I saw that you reminded me to put predelay before the chamber. Thanks!

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Re: Cupwise Real Spaces - Chambers Part A - Chambers of Myth

Post by Cupwise » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:15 pm

just a heads up but within a couple of days i'm going to cut the introductory price savings within half, so it will only be around $4-5 off, probably for another week and then it's full price.

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Re: Cupwise Real Spaces - Chambers Part A - Chambers of Myth

Post by Cupwise » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:23 pm

RE301 wrote: @ Cupwise, seeing as you have access to these existing chambers of myth, perhaps the owners would be open to the idea of cheap, simple modifications like cement/plaster coating and maybe more shapes in the walls :-0 ...

Doing plaster would be dead easy DIY especially since the cosmetics don't matter.. the main issue I can think of would be how it would stick to a painted surface such as in the chamber of myth pics - one might have to affix wire mesh first.. and do 2 or 3 coats to build up to a thick coat...voila! :-0
i think all the walls in 'cyclops' chamber are plaster, and some in lancelot, already. i don't think the studios would be up for any modifications, but that's ok because i already have 2 more chambers ready to go and maybe more (and other types of spaces) in the future. the next two chambers will be different sounding from these two, for sure.

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Re: Cupwise Real Spaces - Chambers Part A - Chambers of Myth

Post by RE301 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:42 pm

More chambers & other spaces? Awesome! ..

Looking forward to these ones with great anticipation..

(Hope all the riffage here about Gold Star doesn't come across as being ungrateful :-) because I am indeed feeling grateful for the arrival of these real spaces & your efforts to put the libraries together ! ) ..

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Re: Cupwise Real Spaces - Chambers Part A - Chambers of Myth

Post by Cupwise » Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:35 pm

nah not ungrateful. it's an interesting topic, and obviously would be great to be able to get some of these classic chambers 'nebulized'. seems like most of them are against anyone sampling, or have already been sampled and have agreements to not let anyone else do it. i had one tell me waves had done theirs, and another that altiverb had. there may have been other similar replies too but i definitely remember those two. then there were several outright NOs and 'no way!'s etc. capitol records definitely won't let anyone capture theirs since they make money letting people run stuff through them at the studio.

i think when hearing a chamber in an old recording there are a lot of other things contributing to the sound, such as the rest of the signal chain and tape etc. i think other chambers can sound just as good (or not so good) but if people specifically want that exact sound from an old recording then they're going to try to go after that sound i guess. it's going to be a lot of work without impulses of the chambers made how they were used (same type of speakers etc), and trying to recreate similar old signal chains without knowing what they were. hopefully after i've put out a few more of these you'll have options and can get close to a sound you're after with a little eqing etc.

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Re: Cupwise Real Spaces - Chambers Part A - Chambers of Myth

Post by wagz » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:59 pm

Cupwise wrote:nah not ungrateful. it's an interesting topic, and obviously would be great to be able to get some of these classic chambers 'nebulized'. seems like most of them are against anyone sampling, or have already been sampled and have agreements to not let anyone else do it. i had one tell me waves had done theirs, and another that altiverb had. there may have been other similar replies too but i definitely remember those two. then there were several outright NOs and 'no way!'s etc. capitol records definitely won't let anyone capture theirs since they make money letting people run stuff through them at the studio.

i think when hearing a chamber in an old recording there are a lot of other things contributing to the sound, such as the rest of the signal chain and tape etc. i think other chambers can sound just as good (or not so good) but if people specifically want that exact sound from an old recording then they're going to try to go after that sound i guess. it's going to be a lot of work without impulses of the chambers made how they were used (same type of speakers etc), and trying to recreate similar old signal chains without knowing what they were. hopefully after i've put out a few more of these you'll have options and can get close to a sound you're after with a little eqing etc.
That's great news! I think that you are probably gonna have me well covered for nice, natural, real spaces. I agree that the rest of the chain is very important to the recreation of the sounds on records.
markgalup wrote:Hey Tim,

These sound excellent, but in a huge mix session they're a bit taxing on CPU (to be expected). Maybe you've mentioned this already, but why no "Lite" versions? I'd love to have them if you can swing that...

MG
Tim, I also want to second markgalup's request for lite versions.

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