Pirates !

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jorismak
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Re: Pirates !

Post by jorismak » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:44 am

myimo wrote:I recently bought AlexB - Modern Flagship Console (Excellent
by the way) It has some kind of copy protection which older Nebula libraries don't have. Has this been cracked? I don't think Alexb would release his work if it could be.
So whats the matter with this latest protection? Probably nothing.
Well, since it seems to be the exact same copy protection Nebula uses itself, yes it has been cracked.

For me an iLok would probably be a showstopper. And since I bought Nebula when there was no iLok they had to continue to support it. Nothing stopping them from from making a Nebula 2.x with iLok though and providing users a free upgrade. That way they are legally OK. People who don't want / can use iLok can stay with what they have now (and payed for), users which are OK with iLok can continue to use the newest & greatest.

I would hate to see it though. If Acustica would supply the iLok device it would be OK and I would try it (though I have hard feelings after all the stories). But I don't see Acustica shelling out for iLok devices for all their customers, and I don't see myself accepting that I suddenly have to shelf out for one myself. Those things cost at least 40,- euro's here and that is almost half the price of Nebula itself. Just unthinkable.

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Re: Pirates !

Post by andiw » Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:06 am

As soon as you implement iLok I'm outta here (not that it matters to anyone ...) and it will surely change your userbase.

If it's for the better ... I highly doubt it.
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Re: Pirates !

Post by kels » Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:25 am

Acustica, go for ARM my friends. Give us that crazy CPU power that Nebula needs and solve all your piracy problems at the same time for barely 2* the price of an iLok (stackable, so the price can go up)

for sure you know : (but for other users)

http://www.parallella.org/2014/02/05/co ... arallella/

- We should start a poll : iLok vs ARM -

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Re: Pirates !

Post by jorismak » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:50 pm

kels wrote:- We should start a poll : iLok vs ARM -
Well, I think we should wait what Acustica wants to do, because it's their call. And they will collaborate with the 3rd party library devs. We can only forum-talk about nice ideas, but it's their call. A poll will do nothing I guess.

Technically, I see a bunch of problems from the start for those Parallella boards. You don't know the algorithm Nebula does and if it can be brought to the Epiphany multicore engine of that board. The dual-core ARM 9 main cpu's won't do much, that's less in most modern high-end phones :P. Since for example Cuda now only bigs an improvement in certain very special cases, I don't see the engine being parallized on an embedded para-engine quickly. It would be another engine rewritten from scratch for a new unknown platform. Thats another year of development.. will not happen.

And then you've got the problem of bandwidth. Those nebula libraries can be huge :), with only 1gb of RAM and MicroSD or USB2 to transfer data the engine will not be able to get it's vector data fast enough I'm afraid.

And with all that we're only talking about a single instance of Nebula...

No, Nebula in embedded hardware form I don't see happening quickly, and still would leave us paying users of the current Nebula left in the cold and angry.

The Nebula-hardware project they were having in their minds would consist of 'just a regular i7 style of hardware' with embedded high-quality inputs/outputs I guess :). I see embedded boards having trouble with the combined raw cpu power + bandwidth + storage Nebula needs.

So, just forget the idea of Nebula running on embedded hardware for now.
Acustica have the challenge of thinking about how to protect their software, their 3rd party products and keep their current userbase working... and then be appealing to potential new customers... I wouldn't want to be in their shows..

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Re: Pirates !

Post by kels » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:14 pm

Well, I think we should wait what Acustica wants to do, because it's their call.
then, let's them decide if they go ARM or not. Reversibility of argument.
You don't know the algorithm Nebula ...
Because you do ? Really, I don't understand this.
So, just forget the idea of Nebula running on embedded hardware for now.
FYI, GianCarlo is on this :

http://www.acustica-audio.com/phpBB3/vi ... arm#p63850

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Re: Pirates !

Post by koda » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:23 pm

At the moment there seems to be no serial generator for the challange/repsonse system that Acustica has adopted as protection for Nebula and the developers who want.
So I don't think there is a real need to look for more coumbersome solutions.
It's worth a look around "just in case..." but for now it's not really needed.
About the challange response thing, the only thing that should be solved is that if, for any reason, a developer goes out of business, customers should be able to download a specific key generetor for the libraries they bought that will allow for unlimited authorizing.
But this is an extreme possibility, though it should be considered and, in case the actual protection system is so "generic" that this key generator would unlock even libraries from other devs, better tuned.

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Re: Pirates !

Post by SWAN » Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:40 pm

i would have no problem with Nebula and libraries going iLok if thats what they needed to do. just as a counter balance.
if they did that I think developers would have to sell library packs because there may be a minimum spend per ilok asset that makes it worthwhile - but to be honest I also think developers should be making more money out of their libs...but the quality of the libs would have to increase for the sake of the increased spend which I think would be a good thing.
I just think the piecemeal approach to charging for libraries is a historic result of the development of the plugin and the community - but for it really to work on a wider scale as a professional plugin - I think it needs to be realistically costed and move away from this 'community' concept. The community is not like it was before - and now Nebula is being pirated. It also needs to be simplified and made more efficient in use.

I know a lot of nebula users might not agree but I say this for the broader success of Nebula...if things have to change they have to change...there is no other plugin priced or operated like Nebula - and thats probably for a reason.
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Re: Pirates !

Post by koda » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:43 pm

It also needs to be simplified and made more efficient in use
The NVC - Series from RJHolling is a huge leap forward toward this and I think there should be a tighter collab between him and Acustica (don't know to which extent) though. The reason it's obvious, CPUs are always faster and faster and in very few years, using multiple istances of Nebula (for example bands of an EQ) for a single plug (what NVC is trying to accomplish right now) without breaking the workflow of algo plugs is the future.
About protection I'm still confident there's no urgent need to look around, just DO USE the actual challange/repsonse system and provide means to backup users in caso a dev go out of business.

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Re: Pirates !

Post by kylen » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:51 pm

I mentioned earlier that I would support iLok to show that I support Nebula and would be willing to go that far. Hopefully there are better solutions that protect well enough. I would hate to loose any Developers or Customers or other folks in the community over this! I have no idea which copy protection guarantees against piracy 100% or an acceptable percent so my only vote in the poll is - whatever works and maintains the current community lifestyle, and kills pirates (my curse is still active :twisted: )

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Re: Pirates !

Post by SWAN » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:37 pm

it seems impossible to make everyone happy tho in the audio community...until everything is free...

Honestly - if AA now has backing and Giancarlo wants to turn it to a full time serious audio company - he may have to break some eggs to make the omelette...

I feel that the developers and AA are now at a point where they deserve to make some money and charge what their work is worth. The robin hood days are over. The 'community' does not exist anymore where we all brought everything because it was made. I think it ought to become a real business - and for that it needs real consumers who buy for a reason.

AA needs to work with developers to make a specific Nebula compressor (work with Cupwise). A specific 3-4 band EQ module. Specific saturation libraries with optimised Nebula technology. Keep it simple for the consumer - but great Nebula sound. No more tinkering 'experiments' or packages with 100+ programs trying to eek out the hardware...make it mass market. Otherwise I fear it will die a slow death as algo models improve and people loose interest in the marginal differences.
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Re: Pirates !

Post by Mplay » Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:02 pm

I might be naive, but I enjoy spending my money on software from companies that show a little trust in their customers. I love the fact I can install reaper and my u-he synths without having to jump through any hoops.

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Re: Pirates !

Post by PICT » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:50 pm

I am totally opposed to copy protection.It won't stop people using cracked versions and I don't see why I should have to be inconvenienced by it.I bought Alexb's latest modern flagship console and I detested having to jump through hoops to register it.Alexb has stated that it's his ball and he gets to decide but I really sincerely doubt that he is going to gain any extra sales from implementing copy protection most of the big audio software names have ditched the dongle long ago.If nebula ever decides to go for ilok I will ditch them instantly.Copyright infringement might be unpleasant for developers but trying to conflate copyright infringement with theft is pure BS in my opinion nothing has been stolen it has been illegaly copied.I believe that the paying customer should be the focus of the seller and not the hypothetical individual who uses unpaid for software if they can't get it for free those individuals will simply move on to some other cracked software they are almost certainly not going to buy the licenced version.Remember "home taping is killing music" it was BS then and it's BS now.There's more music available now than ever and the same goes for software.Reaper is a shining example of how to treat your potential customers it's called TRUST.

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Re: Pirates !

Post by richie43 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:17 pm

PICT wrote:I am totally opposed to copy protection.It won't stop people using cracked versions and I don't see why I should have to be inconvenienced by it.I bought Alexb's latest modern flagship console and I detested having to jump through hoops to register it.Alexb has stated that it's his ball and he gets to decide but I really sincerely doubt that he is going to gain any extra sales from implementing copy protection most of the big audio software names have ditched the dongle long ago.If nebula ever decides to go for ilok I will ditch them instantly.Copyright infringement might be unpleasant for developers but trying to conflate copyright infringement with theft is pure BS in my opinion nothing has been stolen it has been illegaly copied.I believe that the paying customer should be the focus of the seller and not the hypothetical individual who uses unpaid for software if they can't get it for free those individuals will simply move on to some other cracked software they are almost certainly not going to buy the licenced version.Remember "home taping is killing music" it was BS then and it's BS now.There's more music available now than ever and the same goes for software.Reaper is a shining example of how to treat your potential customers it's called TRUST.
I agree with most of your sentiment, but I don't think that CP itself is all bad. Certain forms are horrible, but some actually work ok and are not "jumping through hoops". But to be fair, very few companies can operate with a Reaper business model because Justin Frankel, the maker of Reaper, is independently wealthy and can afford MANY more risks than almost any other software dev. I use Reaper exclusively, and love everything about Cockos. But it's an unrealistic expectation to think that anyone else could operate that way.
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Re: Pirates !

Post by giancarlo » Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:33 pm

I agree with rich.
There is a fact, the complete lacking of sells as soon as copied libraries were shared on other websites.

When you don't pay for a product you are damaging us. It's more or less like stealing. It happens because
- you are using a product without paying for it
In economy the creating of a product implies several kind of costs, for example things used for creating it. Software has a big development cost and zero cost for replicating it, more or less like music.

If you think you are not stealing, I could say the same for your music. Not very nice if you paid 100K and get finnaly a 1 billion views youtube song and you discover everyone used greasemonkey for downloading it, and you could be a billionaire and you didn't sell anything of anything. I think you would not very happy of paying banks just for being an hero.

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Re: Pirates !

Post by koda » Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:36 pm

Anyway Giancarlo you already have you own copy protection system just find a method to protect customers in the eventuality onw dev goes off duty and most of all push devs to use it (!!)...
Devs should develope some automated system to validate licenses (sort of what AITB did) or just sit down with all dev and study a centralized licesing system, so that all enabled users pass from this site (that would also cover user in case a dev goes off).
Then if and when a "key generator" comes out you'll switch to more robust system imho.
Why think now to a more coumbersome protection when you (the devs) are not using the one available yet and it's not even been cracked already!?

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