console/tape order...

Officially Licensed 3rd Party Developer Libraries
Free 3rd Party Programs
[email protected]
User Level II
User Level II
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 1:16 pm

console/tape order...

Post by [email protected] » Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:43 am

Would you use a alexb console program PRIOR to r2r, or after r2r for individual channels? Anyone noticed a difference either way? Or do you stick to mimmicking real world set ups?

faun2500
Vip Member
Vip Member
Posts: 366
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:05 pm
Contact:

Re: console/tape order...

Post by faun2500 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:03 am

I try to mimic real world set ups as much as I can (with limited knowledge).

For that reason I put a tape plugin before console on a channel.

For example I usually have a soft-synth followed by pre-amp program. I then add any other FX like reverb, flanger, fliter etc... then eq and then r2r and tape booster (if I want it on tape) and then at the end I add a console input.

I would then have all audio files ready to mix and that is when I would buss drums, synths ect... where I add the buss programs, compressors and eq as needed.

A master bus console program and then reander the audio.

:P
Forthcoming releases on: Black Heart Label, Hyperdrive and Transfixion. http://soundcloud.com/100mg. 6 FREE Downloads on my soundcloud page. Nebula ALL over these trax!

[email protected]
User Level II
User Level II
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 1:16 pm

Re: console/tape order...

Post by [email protected] » Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:08 am

intersting thanks. Much the same as me, except I add r2r and console prior to any mixing of any sort at all...I never thought about doing it post mixing/processing...do you have a set reason your doing it that way?

User avatar
ngarjuna
Expert
Expert
Posts: 782
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:04 pm
Location: Miami

Re: console/tape order...

Post by ngarjuna » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:30 pm

I'm the opposite, I almost always put the tape programs last. I started doing it that way because of the realism of the emulation; tape is the last thing that your signal would hit in a tape-based recording situation so, if you're emulating with as much accuracy as possible, the signal hits the console before it is routed to its final destination.

In terms of other effects, it sort of depends. If I'm ready to throw in some EQ/compression I'll usually do so at the point in the chain that they would appear if I were using the hardware. But sometimes it's easier to process everything via console/tape and then worry about EQ/comp because tape programs will flat out save you EQ instances. I would not process console/tape last, personally, because it has such a major impact that it can alter your needs (in terms of other processing); it would be like salting my food before tasting it only to find out that the sauce, which hadn't been served yet, was also kind of salty.
Last edited by ngarjuna on Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Definity
Beta Tester
Beta Tester
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:54 am

Re: console/tape order...

Post by Definity » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:34 pm

depends really, back in the day they used to mix it down on 24 track tape then onto a 2 track tape, so mabey one on the master bus and another on the inserts?

[email protected]
User Level II
User Level II
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 1:16 pm

Re: console/tape order...

Post by [email protected] » Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:02 pm

ngarjuna wrote:I'm the opposite, I almost always put the tape programs last. I started doing it that way because of the realism of the emulation; tape is the last thing that your signal would hit in a tape-based recording situation so, if you're emulating with as much accuracy as possible, the signal hits the console before it is routed to its final destination.

In terms of other effects, it sort of depends. If I'm ready to throw in some EQ/compression I'll usually do so at the point in the chain that they would appear if I were using the hardware. But sometimes it's easier to process everything via console/tape and then worry about EQ/comp because tape programs will flat out save you EQ instances. I would not process console/tape last, personally, because it has such a major impact that it can alter your needs (in terms of other processing); it would be like salting my food before tasting it only to find out that the sauce, which hadn't been served yet, was also kind of salty.
I agree. But...then we run into troubles with gain staging...

EG - AlexB's console programs like a level of -18db RMS, or real world analog for want of a better term. So, what if you have tracks quite a bit higher than this in level? Well, thats perfect for processing with r2r first as it prefers levels closer to 0dbFS for a real world effect..

So if you want to use console programs first, what do you do?
If we are using nebulaman to render these files and not bouncing directly from our DAW...

We need to tailor those levels down to around -18dbRMS. All I can think of is adjust each track individually in the DAW, then bounce each track down before processing with AlexB libraries. Of course to hit r2r in the sweet spot we have to repeat this process all over again to get the levels back up into r2r's sweet spot. Thats a HELL of alot of work. Im trying to come up with a better way of being able to use AlexB consoles before r2r with the different gain staging issues involved. Thoughts welcome..

User avatar
ngarjuna
Expert
Expert
Posts: 782
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:04 pm
Location: Miami

Re: console/tape order...

Post by ngarjuna » Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:34 pm

[email protected] wrote: I agree. But...then we run into troubles with gain staging...

EG - AlexB's console programs like a level of -18db RMS, or real world analog for want of a better term. So, what if you have tracks quite a bit higher than this in level? Well, thats perfect for processing with r2r first as it prefers levels closer to 0dbFS for a real world effect..

So if you want to use console programs first, what do you do?
If we are using nebulaman to render these files and not bouncing directly from our DAW...

We need to tailor those levels down to around -18dbRMS. All I can think of is adjust each track individually in the DAW, then bounce each track down before processing with AlexB libraries. Of course to hit r2r in the sweet spot we have to repeat this process all over again to get the levels back up into r2r's sweet spot. Thats a HELL of alot of work. Im trying to come up with a better way of being able to use AlexB consoles before r2r with the different gain staging issues involved. Thoughts welcome..
Yeah, the workflow can get pretty out of control for sure.

I came up with 2 very simple solutions for my DAW that help me get around gain staging issues (so I can change very easily):
1. Satson. It's technically a console emulation unto itself but I have all that stuff turned off. I use it as a meter and trim; normally it's actually my first insert. That way I can set the gain right there (and do any filtering I want, it has nice filters) and it leaves Satson colorless and staged for whatever is next in the chain.
2. Trim jc plugin. In REAPER you can code these JS plugins fairly easily; so I made one that is basically just a gain control, nothing else. That way if I want to quickly gain up or down (whether a lot or a little) I can do that without eating a lot of CPU or having a fancy GUI in the way.
3. It's worth mentioning: although I don't use it this way as often, you could actually just use Nebula's In/Out to stage. Now that Nebula has really good metering it's really easy to just load up your Alex console, for example, and just use the VU meter to stage it right there (trimming down the input as needed). Very convenient.

It can be complex (as can a room full of hardware) but once you get used to a system and really stick to it you'll find your speed and productivity go way up.

[email protected]
User Level II
User Level II
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 1:16 pm

Re: console/tape order...

Post by [email protected] » Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:55 pm

all great ideas Ngarjuna, BUT if your using Nebulaman because your CPU cant handle rendering tracks, you cant do any of this preparation of track levels. Your stuck with the level they are at. Nebulaman is working off the raw track files, which are not effected by anything you do to them in your DAW unless you bounce and replace the original file.

And the main reason for me is because, in Pro tools you can only do a live bounce, the track has to play back in real time from start to finish to complete the bounce. If CPU is maxed out, you cant play the project back.

Cupwise
Expert
Expert
Posts: 1045
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:03 am

Re: console/tape order...

Post by Cupwise » Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:14 pm

if you aren't using your ear to hear what amount of level going into a nebula instance actually sounds best, and you just want to process some stuff without really thinking about it (which i'm not trying to say i am against), why not just create custom presets with whatever programs need to have things shifted around the most? you are saying you need to adjust levels going into a certain program or set of programs and that messes up your workflow, well why don't you open those programs, go into edit mode, drop the padin by that amount and add the same amount to padout to compensate. then you go to i think it's the 'memo' page, change the name of the program, and click 'saveas'. it saves it as a new preset.

to make it easier, use vstanalyser so that you can see for sure that your padout compensation amount is accurate, the flat line should be on 0db.

User avatar
Mercado_Negro
Expert
Expert
Posts: 1370
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:30 am

Re: console/tape order...

Post by Mercado_Negro » Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:07 pm

A typical path is:

Mic/line->Console->Tape->Console->DAW->Console

so, for example, you could easily end up with something like:

PCS A512 (preamp, not necessary, depends on several factors)
MLC IL1 (console input)
Rev-15-499-0 (tape)
TapeBoost 96 Lo1 (a little bit of saturation)
VTM-M2 (more saturation/tape compression, if needed)
MLC SRN (send/return)
i7 3770k :: Asus P8H77-V LE :: 16Gb DDR3 @1600MHz :: Geforce GT 520 :: OCZ-Vertex 128Gb :: WD Black Series 1Tb and Green Series 1Tb :: F*******e Liquid56 :: REAPER 64bit and StudioOne 64bit (both latest versions) :: Win 10 64bit

Mplay
Member
Member
Posts: 294
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:25 am
Location: Willemstad, Curaçao

Re: console/tape order...

Post by Mplay » Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:59 pm

Mercado_Negro wrote:A typical path is:

Mic/line->Console->Tape->Console->DAW->Console

so, for example, you could easily end up with something like:

PCS A512 (preamp, not necessary, depends on several factors)
MLC IL1 (console input)
Rev-15-499-0 (tape)
TapeBoost 96 Lo1 (a little bit of saturation)
VTM-M2 (more saturation/tape compression, if needed)
MLC SRN (send/return)
I've tried this after you described the same some time ago. The console effect definitely becomes more prominent if you use more instances.

faun2500
Vip Member
Vip Member
Posts: 366
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:05 pm
Contact:

Re: console/tape order...

Post by faun2500 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:08 pm

ngarjuna wrote:tape is the last thing that your signal would hit in a tape-based recording situation so,
When I read an article about how the band KEANE recorded one of there albums I remember the engineer recorded the drums (for example) straight to tape.

Then from the tape they were took to a different studio and mixed on an S*L desk. They probably EQ'ed the drums when they mixed it.

So this chain would seem to be - drums> Tape> Console/EQ.

I guess the answer is that there are many ways to skin a cat. :)

A question that I would have is do you use the console before or after the EQ? Using filters would filter the sub frequencies that a console can add.

E.G, Alex B's MLC adds sub bass to your sound. If i use a hi pass filter from the MLEQ (as I often do) those sub freq's would be filtered out. Or, do you EQ before and have that console after the EQ?
Forthcoming releases on: Black Heart Label, Hyperdrive and Transfixion. http://soundcloud.com/100mg. 6 FREE Downloads on my soundcloud page. Nebula ALL over these trax!

surbitone
User Level V
User Level V
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:45 pm

Re: console/tape order...

Post by surbitone » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:13 pm

If you were tracking it in one studio and mixing in another, you might emulate that by something like:

VBC PRE
or
VBC IL
73eq (or anything you would want to use as an insert/s)
(you could add a buss here, maybe a compressor, eq - like if you were summing kick mics, guitar cabs etc etc to a single channel before hitting tape)
R2R
TB+(however many are needed)
VTM
MBC IL
(maybe a compressor or 'outboard' eq insert)
VBQ
bypass master 1+2 on all channels, and instead send to one (or more) busses, they are then routed to master outs 1+2, with the matster buss of the console inserted, possibly followed by an eq /compressor going to Nagra or something. Alternatively, you could compress / eq the buss groups, and mix into them. You can setup reverb sends with an SNR program before sending via 'insert' straight to a stereo buss, bypasssing the channels, to save room on the mixer ;)

User avatar
vicnestE
Expert
Expert
Posts: 776
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:11 am

Re: console/tape order...

Post by vicnestE » Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:51 pm

surbitone wrote:If you were tracking it in one studio and mixing in another, you might emulate that by something like:

VBC PRE
or
VBC IL
73eq (or anything you would want to use as an insert/s)
(you could add a buss here, maybe a compressor, eq - like if you were summing kick mics, guitar cabs etc etc to a single channel before hitting tape)
R2R
TB+(however many are needed)
VTM
MBC IL
(maybe a compressor or 'outboard' eq insert)
VBQ
bypass master 1+2 on all channels, and instead send to one (or more) busses, they are then routed to master outs 1+2, with the matster buss of the console inserted, possibly followed by an eq /compressor going to Nagra or something. Alternatively, you could compress / eq the buss groups, and mix into them. You can setup reverb sends with an SNR program before sending via 'insert' straight to a stereo buss, bypasssing the channels, to save room on the mixer ;)
You can trim master bus input in reaper by lower the envelope of Volume (Pre-FX). Or use nebula's input.
It's much quicker this way than messing around with more sends.

I tend to grounp all FX channels and put a tape or/and console SNR on that group. Not accurate but could save some resource and the sound is not bad.

MegaDude
User Level II
User Level II
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:53 pm

Re: console/tape order...

Post by MegaDude » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:02 pm

just curious where you would put any tube programs in the sequence, e.g., from cdsoundmaster's tube library. are there any good rules of thumb for mixing tubes and tape?

Post Reply