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is Nebula ready for a limiter?

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:46 pm
by audioanal
simple question.
No matter high cpu ussage, I just need to load one instance for mastering my tracks.

The big problem for getting BIG rms level when mastering with plugins is the limiting process.
ALL the normal limiter plugins make the sound harsh, crisp, too brilliant and looses detail just with a 3 or 4 dbs of GR.
Limiting is the most destructive process of all, and normal plugins will never do a good job.
Could Nebula be someday a good limiter?

Re: is Nebula ready for a limiter?

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:17 pm
by jesse.nemitz
are you talking about brickwall limiting? Finall brickwall limiters typically exist on the digital side of the world... There's only a few hardware brickwall limiters that even exist to my knowledge (Pendulum, Waves L2 hardware) it would be nice to get these but I'd settle for a serious library of hardware compressors as is the current trend.

Re: is Nebula ready for a limiter?

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:12 am
by AlexB
Brickwall limiter I think no, it's mainly a digital approach.
Analog limiter yes. The GMD will be released in the next months, it is the N*****n U473 compressor/limiter from the mastering console which has a good transparent limiter.
Personally I don't use a Brickwall limiter, I prefer to lower the fader manually (automation) if necessary, as B.Katz suggests, but in reality I never reach more than -0.3dB peak at K14. 8-)

Re: is Nebula ready for a limiter?

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:13 am
by cj01djs
It's ok when we mix something that need only -14 db rms but when you need to master some dance pop music and need -8 or -7 db rms is a different thing.Most of digital limiters destroys the transients of the sound and made the sound to be poor on dynamic and depth.Most of the time i use clipping on the AD converter to maintain the sound of the mix.I tried all the limiters and i use some of them but even if you put 3 limiters one after the other the sound is not quite right most of the time.Sometimes i need to use a limiter after the clipping to rise the rms with 1 db.Most of the limiters don't sound just right with more than 2-3 db GR.
This situation was made by the rms war witch is stupid by the way.Louder is best for too much people,not personal for me,but this is the present war.
A limiter in Nebula world could be gold but i think is a hard thing to handle -8 rms without distorsions.Time will tell.
Happy mixing to everyone.

Re: is Nebula ready for a limiter?

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:28 am
by biomuse
Nebula is not going to be helpful in the loudness war anytime soon.

Re: is Nebula ready for a limiter?

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:07 am
by AlexB
cj01djs wrote:It's ok when we mix something that need only -14 db rms but when you need to master some dance pop music and need -8 or -7 db rms is a different thing...
I think it's natural... Too compressed sound = no dynamics. It's not music, it's noise... Sorry. :lol:

Re: is Nebula ready for a limiter?

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:31 pm
by richie43
And a score for Alex! I have to agree.

Re: is Nebula ready for a limiter?

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:32 am
by faun2500
In some music a brickwall limiter is very useful. Doesn't have to turn everything to noise. :roll:

Can't wait for the compressor to go with the mastering console! :D

Re: is Nebula ready for a limiter?

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:37 am
by enriquesilveti
but when you need to master some dance pop music and need -8 or -7 db rms is a different thing
Mastering studio distort an AD/DA loop in other to square audio signal, you could consider a limiter too. Sample by sample digital limiting and distort AD/DA loop are not able to sample with NAT.

Re: is Nebula ready for a limiter?

Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:42 pm
by greekpeet
AlexB wrote:
cj01djs wrote:It's ok when we mix something that need only -14 db rms but when you need to master some dance pop music and need -8 or -7 db rms is a different thing...
I think it's natural... Too compressed sound = no dynamics. It's not music, it's noise... Sorry. :lol:
"Its not how loud you make it, its how you make it loud" - Bob Katz

Those tracks in the club will NOT sound as good as something that is mixed well at -12 RMS, period, end of story. In fact if you think someone will not buy your music because they have to turn up the volume slider an 8th of an inch on their computer monitor vs. having it sound crushed and lifeless is incorrect as well.

In fact there has been ALOT of market research to disprove a lot of these fallacies on these things. Adding in-harmonic distortion or what people call 'Loudness' does NOT sell records, great music, with a great mix are what do. Else why would people have everything from the Beatles, Bach, to Kraftwerk on their iPod and know how to adjust the volume? Last time I checked sans piracy issues, the more rabid the 'loudness wars' get, the less people buy music. Maybe some connection, but my last album I had it in the contract that the mastering engineer must not go over -14 db RMS (this is a film ambient album). Needless to say there, the label was saying 'its too quiet' compared to the other albums they released. So far its doing much better than all of us thought, and better than the other releases on the label that are 'louder'. So I just stick to writing good music, make the mixes sound as best I can, and make sure the mastering sounds as good as possible. I never worry about rms level when I'm composing, even if its a 4x4 trance anthem.

People react to really good mixed dance music thats mastered for best sound quality, far more than the crushed -7 rms records. Your not adding 'level' in those cases your adding in-harmonic distortion.

You destroy the bass, and the high end is ready hard after prolonged periods of time. At those levels it does not induce any form of aural pleasure, or sound as impressive as you would think even on a bad PA. Its impossible to 'get lost in the music' at that point because your taking out all of the stuff people physically respond to.

So all of this insanity of people worrying more about RMS levels than actual content (as an old German saying goes) 'will all be washed away in a sea of logic'.

Re: is Nebula ready for a limiter?

Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:19 pm
by greekpeet
faun2500 wrote:In some music a brickwall limiter is very useful. Doesn't have to turn everything to noise. :roll:

Can't wait for the compressor to go with the mastering console! :D

That is true, and in some cases they can be good tools, but people use them like they used gated snares in the 80s.

Re: is Nebula ready for a limiter?

Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:14 pm
by Cupwise
the thing i hate about limited music is that the drums don't punch out above the rest of the music anymore. it's funny when, you have a group like the chemical brothers, for example, who were called 'big beat', and back then i thought their drums sounded really good (the patterns etc), but if you listen to anything from dig your own hole or that era now, you can hear that the drums are completely squashed and have no punch at all. all you are hearing is the 'sound' of a drum, but not the impact of it. how is that big? pretty much every music style does this now too, not just electronic.

drums in the real world would never be squashed like that, so why do it on a record?

Re: is Nebula ready for a limiter?

Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:27 pm
by greekpeet
Cupwise wrote:the thing i hate about limited music is that the drums don't punch out above the rest of the music anymore. it's funny when, you have a group like the chemical brothers, for example, who were called 'big beat', and back then i thought their drums sounded really good (the patterns etc), but if you listen to anything from dig your own hole or that era now, you can hear that the drums are completely squashed and have no punch at all. all you are hearing is the 'sound' of a drum, but not the impact of it. how is that big? pretty much every music style does this now too, not just electronic.

drums in the real world would never be squashed like that, so why do it on a record?
wow, when you put it that way, with what Alex B stated, so right on.
"Music vs. Sound"

Re: is Nebula ready for a limiter?

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:22 pm
by faun2500
I completely agree that music these days are over limited and sound shit. But that's not the only use for a limiter.

Some times you want a sound or instrument on a channel; to have a squashed sound or less peaks, some times in mixing peaks can be a problem sometimes in mastering you want to limit a few massive peaks that lowers the level of the total track.

All good ways to use a limiter, the problem is that the latter has been abused by people.

Re: is Nebula ready for a limiter?

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:00 pm
by DavidMeShow
Limiter should always be used with care! It's a "destruction" tool that can be useful when needed. :ugeek: