Console and tape emulation at 88.2--is it worth it?

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dpclarkson
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Re: Console and tape emulation at 88.2--is it worth it?

Post by dpclarkson » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:14 pm

I have lots of libraries that I've converted
from 96 to 48k inside NAT.
Would that make a difference?
I did this conversion for the sake of
loading times, but as I'm reading this thread,
I'm starting to think about moving to 96k for good.

Martinez
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Re: Console and tape emulation at 88.2--is it worth it?

Post by Martinez » Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:42 am

I've heard Nebula do some really bad things when doing it's src thing and have had to reload the whole project as a result.
At which point can you be sure that the library is sounding as it's supposed to?
When you are ready to print the mix are you sure that it really sounds as you mixed it to sound?
It's very easy to mix something untill it's to late and you have to reprint it all over again.
It's a very simple matter to up sample from 88 to 96 and if you use a decent SRC then it's fairly transparent aswell.
much more transparent than Nebula's SRC is or can be.

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Re: Console and tape emulation at 88.2--is it worth it?

Post by RJHollins » Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:50 am

if you see a 'flashing arrow' next to the samplerate display on the main Nebula GUI ... then you know the conversion failed.
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Martinez
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Re: Console and tape emulation at 88.2--is it worth it?

Post by Martinez » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:00 am

RJHollins wrote:if you see a 'flashing arrow' next to the samplerate display on the main Nebula GUI ... then you know the conversion failed.

And thus better to just avoid any kind of Neb Src at all if possible.

edbilleaud
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Re: Console and tape emulation at 88.2--is it worth it?

Post by edbilleaud » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:35 pm

I like to upsample everything to 96k (if it was not already recorded that way) using Izotope at highest quality setting, then mix and/or master, and output a 96k file, then downsample again using Izotope. After many A/B comparisons, on my system, this gives the best sound over any other conversion methods. YMMV.

biomuse
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Re: Console and tape emulation at 88.2--is it worth it?

Post by biomuse » Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:27 pm

edbilleaud wrote:I like to upsample everything to 96k (if it was not already recorded that way) using Izotope at highest quality setting, then mix and/or master, and output a 96k file, then downsample again using Izotope. After many A/B comparisons, on my system, this gives the best sound over any other conversion methods. YMMV.
Over 44.1, absolutely. But over 88.2??

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Re: Console and tape emulation at 88.2--is it worth it?

Post by biomuse » Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:33 pm

martinez wrote:
RJHollins wrote:if you see a 'flashing arrow' next to the samplerate display on the main Nebula GUI ... then you know the conversion failed.

And thus better to just avoid any kind of Neb Src at all if possible.
No. Conversion failures are nearly always due to the fact that Nebula didn't have enough time to convert the whole library because the RATE CNV parameter on the Master page is set too low (the default value is sometimes too low for large libraries).

Go to the Master page and set RATE CNV to maximum (~9000), press SAVE and you will never experience a conversion failure again. It won't slow anything down or have any other negative consequences.

(This RATE CNV parameter has been discussed before and it's pretty universally agreed that it should just be left to maximum and forgotten, or even removed from end user accessibility, since all it does for users is cause conversion failure when it's set too low.)

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Re: Console and tape emulation at 88.2--is it worth it?

Post by cdsoundmaster » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:04 pm

Hi there,

Just want to share that from a mastering standpoint, I've found there are a lot of myths about what does and doesn't work with different types of conversion. The truth is that most current conversions do an excellent job. If your main concern is the difference betwwen 96 and 88.2, there are solutions that work fine. If your projects are at 88.2, you aren't going to lose anything converting up to 96 if using a good conversion algo, which would upsample anyway. The main issues happen from higher rates down from what was first recorded, and that is where the data becomes mis-interpreted. Nothing at 96kHz, 88.2kHz, 192kHz, or any good extended rates, is really represented perfectly at 44.1kHz even if transferred in analog. It isn't really an issue of aliasing or inter-sample anymore, unless using a terrible conversion tool. You can let Neb convert the 96kHz to 88.2 for you with things like tape and preamps and fixed point eq's and it does an excellent job. You can use Izotope for the same thing. I personally think slow mode for R8 Vox is the best for final downsampling but there are a lot of good options.

Bottom line, if you are gaining something from very well recorded material at 88.1kHz, then use 88.2 or higher until final conversion and you are fine. If your 88.2kHz contains material that was originally recorded at lower rates you may not be gaining a ton from higher rates unless if it an algo-based compressor that needs higher rates to perform timing correctly.

justinmorell wrote:Hi all,

Just looking for some opinions. I have a session at 88.2kHz and would so like to use some of the AlexB and CDSM emulations. I'm wondering, is it worth the sonic price of SRC (I have izotope) to upsample to 96kHz to be able to use the emulations?

Thanks,

Justin

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Re: Console and tape emulation at 88.2--is it worth it?

Post by edbilleaud » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:41 pm

biomuse wrote:
edbilleaud wrote:I like to upsample everything to 96k (if it was not already recorded that way) using Izotope at highest quality setting, then mix and/or master, and output a 96k file, then downsample again using Izotope. After many A/B comparisons, on my system, this gives the best sound over any other conversion methods. YMMV.
Over 44.1, absolutely. But over 88.2??
I have found that ANY src in logic deteriorates the sound quality. Admittedly, one could if desired use Izotope to upsample (or downsample) to 88.2, then import into logic, but since I use Nebula plugs at 96 already (3rd party), it seems like a needless, and useless, and perhaps risky step. Why not start and finish at 96k, without extra conversion? IMHO, and YMMV.

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Re: Console and tape emulation at 88.2--is it worth it?

Post by greekpeet » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:29 am

I think the use your ears approach would be spot on, if you haven't figured out what you like best per your SRC preference.

Either way, its something your going to have to deal with regardless.

So think of it this way...

What do you gain from upsampling the audio?
Nothing.
What you loose those is disk space and CPU cycles.

What do you gain from down sampling 96khz libraries, and what do you gain or loose from upsampling 44.1khz libraries.

Then down sampling again.

As always, go with the past of LEAST processing for the best sonic approach.

I don't know what kind of libraries you have, and how you use them, so honestly, it could go either way.

Do what sounds good and gets a better emotional response out of the music.

It IS about the details, and am glad this kind of thread came up.

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