why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

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domandroland
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why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Post by domandroland » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:33 pm

I've noticed it with lots of plug-ins, but more so with nebula because it sounds so good. I did a good few hours of testing yesterday, i seem to do it every couple of years because i have never had a satisfactory answer from anyone. I'm not looking for a null, i just want the bounced version to have the same 3dness as the original. The closest i've got to doing this is running out of my converters and recording back in. I just don't understand if it's a daw or nebula thing stopping them from sounding the same with a straight 24bit bounce. Just to see if it was the daw i also tried reaper and live, but they also suffer from the same problem.

Without wanting to sound bigheaded, it's obviously not something everyone can hear. I did a blind test (bounced vs. live) about a year ago with another producer, i picked the bounce while he was switching the two 10 times out of 11, from the other side of the room. He thought i was playing tricks on him as he couldn't hear the difference even after i told him what to listen for (transients and depth at the same time.)

Hopefully someone else has heard this. Maybe someone even has an intelligent answer for me. I need to get to the bottom of this.
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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Post by musicgreator » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:01 pm

I'm interested in this topic, i hope there is no difference because i often need offline bounce. One explanation might be your digital clock. I imagine that the clock isn't used in offline bounce but since there seem to be so big differences between clocks, that might be the reason. Other people claim, there was no difference after a null test but that might be a different story for nebula.

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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Post by FrankydT » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:46 pm

Does it happen to you even in online bounces?
It's more slow, but I suggest this method

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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Post by lordnielson » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:50 pm

Maybe Nebula doesn't cycle it's samples when bouncing offline. Did you try realtime bouncing ?
Edit: Same as the above reply I just realise. 8-)

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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Post by futur2 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:17 pm

to late here :P but the first thing i tought was also realtime bouncing...

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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Post by domandroland » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:27 pm

I tried online and offline bounce and different dithering too.

I did figure out is that routing the track with plugins on to a bus and recording using that bus as an input always retains more than a bounce. Annoyingly the best in terms of retaining 3d and vibe seems to be going out the converters and back in.

As some nebula programs are not static in essence
as far as the nulling thing goes, i don't understand this:

Drum track with input channels, eq's, tape and mixbuss bounced or recorded and phase flipped doesn't null.

Drum track with input channels, eq's, tape and mixbuss copied to another track and phase flipped does null.

My conclusion is that it is definately something to do with rendering or recording. The clock thing sounds interesting, but have had many interfaces over the years and have always had this problem.
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domandroland
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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Post by domandroland » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:35 pm

also i notice when looking at voxengo span doing some of these tests
that doing a straight bounce on a file with no plugins inserted gets a perfect null all the way down as far as the analyser goes, but as soon as you insert any type of plug in, even just a gain, a noisefloor appears, that looks like dither. (i.e something added by the bounce that wasn't there before) It's just below the 24bit threshold, but it made me wonder whether it's cumalative, so if you had 5 or 6 plugs chained on that track it could edge it's way up, interact with the track itself and be the cause of the difference.
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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Post by exrovite » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:24 pm

I agree with domandroland.
I used to think it was my ear fooling me into thinking there was a loss in quality wheneve I bounced something down.

But I am now certain about this loss in quality when i particularly bounce any track i have processed with nebular down.

This is because the difference is so big. The track seems to loose some of its fluidity and bouncyness. sounds flat and very 2D in nature.

I have also notice this with other plugins as well so I know Nebula is not the culprit.

To get around this I have been routing my tracks back and re-recording effected tracks. Fortunately my sound card RME Fireface400 allows you to do this sort of routing without having to go out of the interface.

I must say that i used to notice this sort of difference in bounced tracks right back when i used to use Sound blaster cards.

I am glad sombody else has noticed.

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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Post by musicgreator » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:33 pm

By going out of the converter and back in, you actually record what you heard through your converter with might add something to the sound.

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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Post by Definity » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:58 pm

well my main DAW aint Logic it is cubase, but what fileformat are you councing out in and what quality? also check bit depth.

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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Post by domandroland » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:36 pm

Yeah it does it in cubase too, i tried awhile back. Before anyone else recommends anything obvious, I have tried all file formats and bit depths, online and offline bounces and recording directly back in on most DAWS internally and DA-AD.
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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Post by giancarlo » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:51 pm

it should render the same thing... really I don't know...

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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Post by TranscendingMusic » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:17 pm

About ywo years ago I looked into why sounds were different in Sonar regarding bouncing and such. I realized it's not that there is a difference in the audio quality but that certain things apply differently (like pan law) depending on how you pick the source. Now, this applied to Sonar so may be there is a 50/50 chance it's what is happening in your daw as well.
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Amongst the tests I did, there was the bounce test. And what I found was that if starting with a mono source, in which the results can be rendered mono, make sure to choose "Track" as the routing source. If stereo, then select "entire mix". If the two are mixed up, meaning contrary to what the source track is, that's when I would get different sounding bounces versus live sound. So by following this, I ensure a 1:1 null. Now again I'm not sure exactly what the protocol is fr your DAW, but may be explaining this would clear something up for you going about to get the same outcome from choosing the right parameters in your daw's bouncing procedure. If not, and you double checked that you are not truncating or doing anything detrimental during the process, then sorry man, I'm at a lost there.
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biomuse
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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Post by biomuse » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:22 pm

domandroland wrote:Yeah it does it in cubase too, i tried awhile back. Before anyone else recommends anything obvious, I have tried all file formats and bit depths, online and offline bounces and recording directly back in on most DAWS internally and DA-AD.
I found that subtle "flattening" only went away once I began to use 32 bit fp for disk storage of all intermediate processed or bounced tracks within a session. I.e.:

24 bit recorded starting files -->processing (EQ, comp, fx etc.)-->32 bit fp freezes/bounces to disk, all the way through the session --> dithered 24 bit format only at final stereo mixdown

As far as I know, writing 32 bit fp files to disk is only supported by DP (at least on Mac).

This way of working is effectively equivalent to performing no intermediate rendering for the entirety of the session. Were you to do a session which actually had no intermediate rendering at all, you would get the same result.

If you haven't yet tried that workflow, I'd be interested to hear what you think of it.

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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Post by mathias » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:22 pm

i thought it is common knowledge to stay in 32bit float till the end of your working process in the digital domain (if you want highest quality and are not bound to certain formats, because of ...)

i assume working in a daw that works with 32bit float internally and throughout its processing-chains.

that said, i am not sure about the math or processing-differences between live-play and offlinebouncing.
it is executed in different speeds and there are for sure differences in the rounding processes, maybe temperatures of the processor, which causes different error-avoiding-processes to come into play.

a computer is absolutely not a perfect machine. it is just that we don't know about these processes on the deepest level and how they are achieved, to give us the impression, everything is perfect.
i am not a specialist in these matters, but i can imagine, that these things can change the way we perceive the audio.
so go by your ears and decide what sounds best to you.
even when you deceive yourself, you go away with a better feeling, which is always a benefit :D .

samplitude has since years an option to record the liveoutput of the mixer to a file and there were long debates about the fact that it sounds different to offlinebounces.
differences are so small for me, that i did not take that too serious. i always found, when the music really takes you, it is just not that important.
for bad music, well....... :roll:

so make good music and it will come through,
mathias
system 1: windows 8 32 bit - samplitude prox/x3, tracktion6/7, reaper
system 2: mac osx yosemite - reaper(32+64bit), tracktion6/7(32+64bit)

both systems on: macbook pro (late 2009), core 2 duo 3,06 ghz, 4 gb ram, graphic: nvidia geforce 9600M GT 512 MB

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