OUT!! Lemon, the first "true" delay in nebula/acqua land

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jus11
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Re: OUT!! Lemon, the first "true" delay in nebula/acqua land

Post by jus11 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:56 pm

Is "NUW x64 plugin" related to Lemon? Sorry if I'm wrong, but it seems that Lemon corrupted one of my projects. After adding Lemon, the project failed to re-open when loading, crashed, and I got a message that Logic failed to open "NUW x64 plugin". So is this something that Lemon/Aqua uses?

Only after I took Lemon out of my components folder, the session opened.

Stickin with vst in Metaplugin for now...

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Re: OUT!! Lemon, the first "true" delay in nebula/acqua land

Post by Acusticaaudiouser33 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:07 pm

I spent a little time with Lemon and like the idea very much.
But for the first time - I own many Aquas already- I had the impression that the overall sound is a bit 'boxed in' and 'cold' and 'hard', a bit 'mechanical' and doesn't open up. As if there is a ceiling holding the sound back from spreading freely.
When using my carbon copy delay on the guitar the sound is darkish, mid rangy as well but free and big.
Of course I compared this to 'echoboy' as well: it felt alright and loose as well. And of course Echoboy can't have all the different textures like samplebased Lemon but it felt free and lush and bigger. More musical in a way.
Sorry to be the first 'critical' feedback here.
Why did I get this impression ... I never felt about any Aqua that way. Aqua technology is always 'big sounding' imo.
I would like to hear from others if my ears 'are mistaken' or if others can relate somewhat with what I'm saying.

Anyway, congrats on Lemon and thanks for some feedback!
regards

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Re: OUT!! Lemon, the first "true" delay in nebula/acqua land

Post by markgalup » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:32 am

Dearest AA and Giancarlo,

I finally got to mix with Lemon today. Seriously, no fanboying here, this release is fucking behemoth and amazing. Not only the sonics, but the entite thing is incredible - the gear sampled, the manual, the feature set, the “Standard” hybrid filters, the GUI... You did this shit RIGHT. The sounds are spot on and the saturation is a joy. Killed it... Thank you.

MG
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Re: OUT!! Lemon, the first "true" delay in nebula/acqua land

Post by cjperez » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:16 am

Bought Lemon... Was trying it out on a mix... My impressions thus far is "pretty ok".. The different presets sounds nice but i still have to dig into it further..

However, :| :| .. I have a problem..... and it's the same exact problem I had & still have with SAND...

While using Cubase 9 with Lemon on ONE track, all of a sudden, other elements in my mix starts to go "Out of Sync"...

To explain this further, Imagine i have a track with Piano,Bass, Guitar , Drums, after playing with Lemon for about 10 minutes, I start to hear my drums going out of Sync with everything else... then once I stop & restart playback, the problem then goes away for a bit....

However, once I start back playing the track and tweaking Lemon, the same problem happens again, but this time with the Piano track... The piano starts going out of sync ... Mind you, i have LEMON as a send effect on Vocals, not on anything else....

At first before i heard the problem, I was having some fun with Lemon, then once i heard that "Out of Sync" problem, i got a bit depressed, cause then i realized that I can't use the plugin in my mixes cause of this issue...

At least in my system, when it comes to Cubase 9 & SAND, for some reason, they don't seem to like each other and as a result, i've pretty much stop using SAND because of this..

I dunno man, but I did file more than one ticket when i bought SAND last year with no result from the Support on the issue so I just gave up.

Really hoping i won't have to give up Lemon because of this again...... Does anyone else have this issue? because it's reallll annoying...

And the other worrysome thing for me is that once I save a project with SAND then i exit cubase 9, then reload Cubase, then the project, the project would Crash on Loading.... meaning that it would refuse to LOAD unless i Uninstalled SAND or at least removed the .dll file from my acustica folder.... sigh.....

I Didn't stick around long enough to see if that would have happened with LEMON, but from past experience, once that out of sync problem starts and i save a project, that would usually be the end result if I try to re-load the project.. Cubase would just crash and refuse to Load up the project file... It's like the cubase file gets corrupted somehow....

Filed a ticket already , but not sure if support can help since this the exact problem i have with SAND..
Intel Core i7 5820k 3.3ghz. 32gigs Ram, Samsung SSD, MSI X99A motherboard, Cubase 8, H******* Mixbus 3.3 & 2.5, Antelope Audio Zen Studio & Yamaha N8 Mixers. Win. 7 64 bit.

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Re: OUT!! Lemon, the first "true" delay in nebula/acqua land

Post by giancarlo » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:23 am

Out of sync? That's very strange, I have cubase9, never heard or experienced that. I tested also on cubase 5

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Re: OUT!! Lemon, the first "true" delay in nebula/acqua land

Post by giancarlo » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:25 am

markgalup wrote:Dearest AA and Giancarlo,

I finally got to mix with Lemon today. Seriously, no fanboying here, this release is fucking behemoth and amazing. Not only the sonics, but the entite thing is incredible - the gear sampled, the manual, the feature set, the “Standard” hybrid filters, the GUI... You did this shit RIGHT. The sounds are spot on and the saturation is a joy. Killed it... Thank you.

MG

Eh eh thank you. We worked seriously hard this time

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Re: OUT!! Lemon, the first "true" delay in nebula/acqua land

Post by Synonym Music » Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:11 pm

Acusticaaudiouser33 wrote:I spent a little time with Lemon and like the idea very much.
But for the first time - I own many Aquas already- I had the impression that the overall sound is a bit 'boxed in' and 'cold' and 'hard', a bit 'mechanical' and doesn't open up. As if there is a ceiling holding the sound back from spreading freely.
When using my carbon copy delay on the guitar the sound is darkish, mid rangy as well but free and big.
Of course I compared this to 'echoboy' as well: it felt alright and loose as well. And of course Echoboy can't have all the different textures like samplebased Lemon but it felt free and lush and bigger. More musical in a way.
Sorry to be the first 'critical' feedback here.
Why did I get this impression ... I never felt about any Aqua that way. Aqua technology is always 'big sounding' imo.
I would like to hear from others if my ears 'are mistaken' or if others can relate somewhat with what I'm saying.

Anyway, congrats on Lemon and thanks for some feedback!
regards
I feel the same. Lemon had kind of a hard sound to it no matter what bank I used. Lush, sweeping, soupy - those were impossible to get for me. I kept reaching for the feedback knob and cranking like mad to get more texture. Speaking of which, feedback knobs and maybe a few other parameters need a link switch.

The variety of devices sampled is excellent. You could hardly want for more. And even though I don't think the sound is as pretty as it could be, the delay lines taper off nicely. Everything sounds different and distinct! Which is something algorithmic plugs struggle with. Yet there's always a hard ringy-ness to the sound. Even Echoboy - though it doesn't have nearly as much a hardware thumbprint - compared favorably.

I'd have no problem using Lemon with lower to moderate feedback levels. There its robustness would be useful. Overall there's clearly a great product here but it feels a little off.

Favorite banks:

A8 Answer 42
A9 Enchanted Princess
B4 Digital Dream
B7 NGC 480
B8 Winter Magic
C0 Back to the Future
C1 Space Loneliness
... Hell, everything from bank C.

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Re: OUT!! Lemon, the first "true" delay in nebula/acqua land

Post by giancarlo » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:17 am

I have a forecast, you'll appreciate it after a couple of days or so.
It happened to me and a lot of testers. Even if it will not happen, it is still an useful tool.
Lemon creates impressive textures, and there is no substitute for it
Judging from feedbacks, this is our best product ever so far
If you test it carefully, tapes are better than our typical nebula emulation.
Program Milano D8 is alone one of the best shelf ever. I've never had a program in nebula as much magic as D2. Delay is different from all ir one, because the distortion - so different from the one you get from other plugins, especially this D2.
The ruby eq alone is worth the product even without the delay. It gives immediately an impressive dimension to vocal tracks. The antidigital preset is a revolution in nebula/acqua land.
We never had such big consensus from different users, so a big thank you everyone

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Re: OUT!! Lemon, the first "true" delay in nebula/acqua land

Post by giancarlo » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:38 am

Just to say it differently: purpose of lemon is NOT sounding big or free (granted you can equalize or add tricks to delay lines, like spreading or ping pong, which will be supported by stereo version)
Purpose of lemon is about raising the audio quality of a track, so it sounds like a record and organic, it fits perfectly in the song. A "free" delay is exactly the opposite, and the track is never working and glued. Once you understand it you understand lemon

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Re: OUT!! Lemon, the first "true" delay in nebula/acqua land

Post by DavideBurattin » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:46 am

giancarlo wrote: Purpose of lemon is about raising the audio quality of a track, so it sounds like a record and organic, it fits perfectly in the song. A "free" delay is exactly the opposite, and the track is never working and glued. Once you understand it you understand lemon
Pure love to Lemon at the first listen <3

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xxp3xf

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Re: OUT!! Lemon, the first "true" delay in nebula/acqua land

Post by giancarlo » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:10 pm


Hi Giancarlo,
thanks for your response.
I just want to make sure that you don't take my critical feedback as some form of 'negativity'.
Your post seems to interpret free, lush, open differently to want I meant. So I will detail my ear's findings:
I just feel that I personally wish that I could set up Lemon more intuitively for something like a simple mono slapback and I could hear the wonderful texture more easily... enveloping the original source sound most organically while still being 'free' and easily discernible . That's what I mean by 'open' sounding. I'm not talking about effecty, wet, special ambiance creating delays 'spaciously, dreamily spreading out' (also with many feedbacks).
As I stated with something like my Carbon Copy (or D1500) I just set it up (without feedback) and I can hear the texture of the first delay free, 'natural' with its great texture big /bold/musical/lush behind the source sound...and then the sound of dry and wet just sits organically in the mix.
So far I didn't have the same experience with Lemon and I start twisting and fumbling with all kinds of parameters to get there. It feels a bit 'crammed and congested' behind the source sound. It doesn't feel so perfectly enveloping the source sound while still being distinct/big/free imho.
I will give it some more time and try to get a better feel for Lemon and hopefully I will get to desired results.

As a summary I wish that Lemon was as easily setup and yielding the same great textured and 'in the mix' sitting results as something as my hardware such e.g. Carbon Copy. I just didn't experience that up to now frankly. That's all.

On the other hand just take this as a hopefully helpful user feedback.
I will buy this Aqua anyway as it really has some 'solidity' and is a huge collection of textures :)
Thanks and regards
I want to explain exactly why an analog delay can get a sound which could be more "present" sometimes. Normally all analog delays don't have a stable decay. For a mistake, lemon had a similar problem in early betatesting releases and it was slighly better on this specific quality, but we were criticized -correctly- because the feedback time was not exactly the one you was expecting (there was a varying mistake of abount 12 to 24 milliseconds).
Now an analog delay is even worse because this mistake is "modulated", it's varying in realtime (ie a memoryman has a 3Hz one and so on).

In lemon we could simulate it with a varying feedback time, but it would lead to a sort of degradation of the signal itself, and this is the exact reason why I dislike other delay plugins. On analog delay this degradation doesn't happen.

This quality is exactly the one reported in the user manual on "memories of tomorrow" section. It is the same thing stefano was explaining to me the first day we started lemon project and it is the same thing I tested in our engine (because our engine CAN DO that varying feedback but I don't like that degradation, and I want to release a product with a STABLE quality, not a product where you tune a parameter and immediatly you get a sort of "plugin" sound). On magnetic disks and tapes this effect is caused by the physical wow&flutter which, BEWARE, was considered an enemy in their project but today is sometimes appreciated. Basically a well serviced unit (or the original unit, just after the purchase) could be "worse" than a degraded unit for this exact reason.

If you want to move lemon delays in this direction I suggest to keep lemon completely wet and modulate (flanger, chorus, doppler) it, supposed you have a good quality modulation among your plugins, because I'm struggling to find a good one.

Now about the plugin: this is what we can do today, this is our state-of-art. I tried to add this modulation but at the end I gave up. Maybe in the future we'll do it, because it is an important characteristic. I'm not hiding here, and it is part of the original lemon manifest text.

Said that, lemon, for being a "plugin" is providing also things you don't have in the analog domain, and it is sometimes superior to other plugins in terms of audio perceived quality.

For example the D2 preset is providing a control you don't have on the original echorc, so you loose something and you gain something. But it is not as much sterile as several impulse-based plugin delays. Final quality in lemon is normally "bigger" than the one you can find on original gear, cause crappy or not serviced converters and so on, or fixes to imperfections of magnetic discs.
Let's be honest, an original D2 device is a nightmare to maintain, to keep it working, and each time you use it you are damaging it in some way, like old vinyls.
We have a lot of stories here: for example we sampled a rmx and it was not as much good as we expected so we removed aliasing. Than we sampled a dmx and with serviced converters and the sound was way close to the final lemon tone, way more than the original rmx. And the dxm didn't need such kind of fix.

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Re: OUT!! Lemon, the first "true" delay in nebula/acqua land

Post by giancarlo » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:30 pm

edit: I recovered it, it's quoted in my answer

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Re: OUT!! Lemon, the first "true" delay in nebula/acqua land

Post by Acusticaaudiouser33 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:52 pm

Hi Giancarlo,

yes, I do appreciate your post/reply to the fullest!!!! Many thanks for the detailed explanation.
I decided to delete my post- which I didn't know that you had already seen by then - as I first wanted to test one more thing before really making up my mind and also I didn't want to post any -possibly- premature 'negativity' at the launch of this huge effort.

Maybe a missing 'natural' modulation or other 'hw artifacts' without tonedegradation' is something that I was hearing and what I'm missing when comparing HW vs Lemon.
But I believe you when you state Lemon is state of the art and you considered things.
(I was just going to repost my deleted post to add to your answer... but now I can see you did that for me already while I'm writing)
I think the key observation in my previous post was:
"I just 'wish' I could set up Lemon as easily as I do set up my e.g. Carbon Copy and get to the same 'musical, big, lush, textured, enveloping' results ... I'm talking about a simple mono slapback without any feedbacks set. I just didn't experience that up to now frankly. That's all."

But I want to test on more thing and also will try to get to know Lemon some more and then if neccessary look how I can work with the parameters towards that goal.

Also, please, if you think you can improve Lemon at some point (in the future) somehow to make it behave even closer to the behaviour and thus sound of a hardware delay -even if wow and flutter and unsteady delay lines were 'dreaded' back then but contribute to the way they sound and behave and sit in the mix behind/enveloping the source: I think it would most worthy the effort.
Anyway, many thanks for taking the time to respond in such an open and detailed way!
Thanks and regards

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Re: OUT!! Lemon, the first "true" delay in nebula/acqua land

Post by giancarlo » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:42 pm

Well we are keeping improving
Never say never.
Eheh

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Re: OUT!! Lemon, the first "true" delay in nebula/acqua land

Post by Acusticaaudiouser33 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:10 pm

giancarlo wrote:Well we are keeping improving
Never say never.
Eheh
;-)
(p.s. your *hotmail* is returning normal emails and there's no pm-ing you, right?)

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